I like some of the methods CM uses, and have used them to good effect with both Max and Murphy (the "ttchh" sound and the small touch to the back legs to distract)

I did try to clicker train Max, but he just wasn't interested, and in the end I'm happy with his training which was initially food reward, but we're slowly phasing this out.

I'm not sure about some of the "dominance" theories CM has, as although I see myself as "in charge", I wouldn't necessarily say I'm a "pack leader" - as I'm a human, not a dog.

I must admit that sometimes, watching CM, I think that any trainer could have solved the dogs problems (e.g. cos they didn't have enough exercise, would only eat human food etc)

I think there is no right or wrong answer really. Different breeds need different types of training. Some need a firmer hand than others. I certainly wouldn't say no to a training session from Mic Martin ( ).

If your dog does what you want it to do, without the training methods being too harsh or cruel, then carry on doing them!

Another clicker convert here. Was saying for years 'what's the point etc etc' and now I am the one teaching it! I have changed a few minds, once you see it's power.

Sorry to hear you didn't get on with it Random, but don't blame the clicker, it is a tool; only as good as the hands using it. If used properly you wouldn't have created a beggar at all - it is desgined to be a communication tool, the dog (animal) figures out what you want by itself. There is nothing more remarkable (in my eyes) than that.
In my classes I use it to show people hands off v. traditional hands on training. When people see the results on their own dogs, they think it is magic. Indeed it is: the magic of having good timing, and understanding, it can be quite a complex subject!

I ask for feedback from my classes, and independantly people have reported to me that they have an increased bond with their dog after clicker training - even though that was not necessarily what they were looking for before they started.
Also clicker training has been shown to increase intelligence, which critics might say is nonsense, but if the dog is working it out for itself, then to me it is as plain as day that clicker dogs are smarter

Not picking you out personally, just this is something I hear quite a lot. It really worries me this kind of statement, it's this idea that "harder" breeds need harsher methods that I believe puts many dogs in rescue (or gets them put down). Dharma is a Bullmastiff - if I'd used a "firmer hand" with her (eg. CM's methods), she'd be dead now (and I could've been too), I have no doubt about it.

Also a lot of the breeds that some believe need a "firmer hand" are actually incredibly sensitive dogs that suffer more from these methods than they could ever gain.

Every dog deserves a trainer/handler/owner that understands how they work and what motivates them individually.

It's OK. I wasn't thinking of "harder" breeds in particular (I have 2 Boxers who alternate between being fantastically trained angel-dogs and absolute demons)

I was more thinking along the lines of the fact that some breeds are very "eager to please" and will do anything, whereas some are more stubborn, and maybe aren't as willing to please as others.

I think theres NO "ONE" method, Different methods suit different people & then theres the DOGS to consider..ie what method suits them! thats quite alot of varience to get right! Al the good trainers i know will pick & choose,tailor it to the dog the are teaching at the time.

Has any one seen the Mary Ray video, Puppy to Novice,Mary ISNT a Clicker "purist" but seeing her sheltie learn the retrieve & the thought process is brill! Again shes using a tool to suit that dog to her advantage!

Adapting & reading the dogs enough to see what they need is the method i like,use & aspire too!

Absolutely agree with you there IsoChick. Dharma is a Bullmastiff - they're known to be very stubborn. I just believe that if I can train her with positive methods only, then anyone can. There is a risk to be had with turning training into confrontation with stubborn breeds, especially when it's completely unecessary. Dharma does as she's asked because she wants to, and to me that's a joy that can't be got through harsher methods.

Sometimes clicker training can work against Ultra smart breeds, Its better for thinking breeds that need a reason to do stuff, collies can just get "too" confused, they often dont need a reson to do anything,so giving them too much choice can be quite frustrating.

Muttzrule said..
Great minds eh, at least on this point!

I think its more that SOME breeds/dogs (not nescasarily harder/stubborn) need firmer handling than others. Be it JRT or Rottie, either may need firm or positive only.

I know the clicker training is OT but my pov is that I get my dogs to do any of the tasks etc without one, sometimes I use a treat (rarely) I certainly dont use fear to achieve it but good timing is the key, is it this that the clicker achieves? Good timing by the owner, so less training the dog and more making the owner capable of training the dog.

Muttzrule, ty for clearing up a few points. I havent read the book or been to Mexico but good to get some facts