What I find worrying is that you truely seem to believe this?

Why oh WHY if you are doing training properly would you teach this way... there is no frustration luring with a treat becasue the dog Instantly gets the reward for doing the right thing...and it is doing the right thing Instantly because (as a decent trainer) you have not put the dog in a situation where it will fail!

Everything with e-collars seems to be putting the dog in the situaiton where it is going to get things wrong...then creating pain and rewarding with the removal of the pain....

ETA - I know, I know......don't feed the Trolls!

how is there extended frustration/discomfort? They come back on call they get a reward.

So basically your training the dog that when you give a command they are going to feel pain? I wouldnt like someone that every time they say something to me im under pain until i do what they say. In my eyes it would produce fearful behaviour and limit trust, but maybe thats because ive rescued two fearful dogs and have had to build their confidence through positive reinforcement.

With an e collar the dog stops the discomfort in a sec.
No matter how fast your dog is he isn't going to get back to you quicker than that for a treat is he?

Adam

No, I'm sorry Adam, but that is not an acceptable way to treat a dog. Dress it up any way you like but it is cruel.

You cannot say how long it will take the dog to 'get it right' - that would depend upon the dog, the cirumstances etc.

The dog is performing in order to get the pain to stop, NOT eager to get it right in order to get the treat. My dog loves it when we do treat training. I suppose I could repeatedly prod him sharply in the ribs in the name of training - or kick him - in order to teach something but somehow I can't imagine he'd be so happy and excited to do the training.

yes mine will because they know when theyre by my side good things happen. They look forward to training because they know good things happen. they love their liver cake they will do any command to get a bit.

Depends how far away he is - as a trainer - I would set up the situation so the dog was close by (literally next to me) and work from there - so yes it would be that quick....initially.

Now this doesnt sound like the AP previously - this one has attitude.

E-collars dont do what a treat can do. Where;s the interaction with the dog. "Go on...go play" *Zap* "good dog" how is that interacting.

My dogs rarely unless playing with another dog go further than a few strides in front of me and I have 3 with high prey drive, but I can recall them all off a crow or a cat by shouting their name and walking in the opposite direction with a treat.

Your clients are dilusional - and their poor dogs.

In much the same way that you can stop them in full drive with adequate training Adam. However, if the worst should happen - and it would be foolhardy to say it never would - then the dog run through the pain threshold.

Ignore it as 'lack of knowledge' if you wish. Let's hope your 'knowledge' is never tested

...yip the recall i posted earlier was past a dog lunging and 2 mates ......he came to me soo happily for the teeniest tiniest piece of f4d puppy

.... why would you want to train anything by pain rather than by reward...i really dont understand

.....push something too far and it will break

Little bit of something to add...
Out in the windy wild world, with real sheep. We (dog and I) crossed a sheep field with an electric fence all round. On lead til we got to the bottom acres, well by that time sheep weren't even visible.

Bottom of field - sheep way away up top - no chasing threat, he was offlead. Fence live though. Top of his Mekuti harness, D ring - briefly touched live electric wire.

No shock.... or if there was one, he didn't care.