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Location: burnley, Northwest
Joined: Nov 2010
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28-08-2011, 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by MerlinsMum 
In that case, you already know that most canids live in family groups, with the breeding pair as seniors and youngsters hanging around til they mature and go off to develop their own group/s. They will help out with a younger litter born to their parents if there is one, and help bring down large prey if there is any to be had.
They co-operate, there is no domination, and aggression isn't needed to maintain coherence of the group.
There is no 'Alpha' - just Mum and Dad, and the family.
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Location: UK
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28-08-2011, 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by Prager Hans
Prager Hans
Even if I was willing to believe that a dog respects you if he does that are you saying that you think if you make (kindly or otherwise) the dog do this behaviour then it CAUSES the dog to respect you
For example you can train your dog any manner of tricks but if you teach them to roll over then they will automatically respect you
Or would you consider that you have to earn your dogs respect before he shows this sign of respecting you?
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Location: USA
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28-08-2011, 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
Hmm, I disagree... Konrad Most, Koehler, the Monks, Woodhouse, CM, etc promoted punishment. It took a while for positive methods for the general public to appear, and then to be accepted. You can go back to cavemen, Romans, sporting dogs in the 1700s etc if you want
Yes not everyone has done this, but generally in dog training, with some exceptions, this is what has been used (see Burch and Bailey, How Dogs Learn). By that I mean an emphasis on punishment.
I didn't think you'd agree, but there we go
Wys
x
That is crazy talk.
Prager Hans
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Location: USA
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28-08-2011, 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by MerlinsMum
In that case, you already know that most canids live in family groups, with the breeding pair as seniors and youngsters hanging around til they mature and go off to develop their own group/s. They will help out with a younger litter born to their parents if there is one, and help bring down large prey if there is any to be had.
They co-operate, there is no domination, and aggression isn't needed to maintain coherence of the group.
There is no 'Alpha' - just Mum and Dad, and the family.
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Location: In an English country cowpat
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,810
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28-08-2011, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Prager Hans
No I do not know that. Are you actually saying that the father wolf is on the same level as his pup. So what are these pictures which I have posted of dominant wolf staying over one rolling over. What is that?????!.
I'm guessing the photo you posted was of captive wolves maybe?
Edit: There's also at least 20,000 years between the wild ancestor and today's domestic dog. An awful lot of selective breeding can be achieved in that time to totally alter behaviour from other canids. Possibly as much as 33,000 years sog, since the skull found in Siberia which was not a wolf, but a domestic, has been carbon dated recently.
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Location: USA
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28-08-2011, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs
How exactly do you go about getting a dog to show his tummy to you?
Even if I was willing to believe that a dog respects you if he does that are you saying that you think if you make (kindly or otherwise) the dog do this behaviour then it CAUSES the dog to respect you
For example you can train your dog any manner of tricks but if you teach them to roll over then they will automatically respect you
Or would you consider that you have to earn your dogs respect before he shows this sign of respecting you?
Prager Hans
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Location: USA
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28-08-2011, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by MerlinsMum
I'm saying Dad doesn't use violence or force to keep his sons and daughters in line. Neither does mum. But that doesn't preclude a son or daughter from rolling over out of choice not force.
I'm guessing the photo you posted was of captive wolves maybe?
He does not need to use violence. Because every pup for thousands of generations who would not display such behavior was killed. Thus thru such selective breeding this is mostly not necessary. It is strongly imbedded in the genetic make up. ( As I have said many time here) .
Prager Hans
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Location: In an English country cowpat
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28-08-2011, 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by Prager Hans
YES!!! YES!!! YES!!!
He does not need to use violence. Because every pup for thousands of generations who would not display such behavior was killed.
I'm not saying it chose to roll over because it was threatened or wanted to appease the other wolf, though, which you've assumed.
I'll ask again - was the photo of captive wolves?
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Location: USA
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28-08-2011, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by promarc
well said but we know Prager wont stop there
Difference without distinction.
That is what it is.
Prager Hans
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Location: In an English country cowpat
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28-08-2011, 07:38 PM
Originally Posted by Prager Hans
AAAH coalition against Hans is formed. Argument is swaying from the topic and sophistry is at work. Now we are calling the dominant dog Dad or Mom and that makes me wrong.
Difference without distinction.
That is what it is.
Prager Hans
But I didn't say Mum and Dad are dominant. And my question is still unanswered. It makes a difference.
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