Promethean : I'm sorry, but I can't make the "multi quote" button work on my computer (its bloody ancient like me, and such a modern phenomenon is probably beyond it !), so I might miss something you said in your post number 837.

Firstly, we are never going to agree on the "alphas are born not made", so we'll drop it !

Alphas - alpha dogs I am talking about now - are indeed as rare as hen's teeth, but they do exist, as we ourselves found out. It was an enlightening experience, and one I would not have missed for the world. They are very rare though, that I will admit.

Your third paragraph I shall treat with the contempt it deserves !!

Alpha dogs and alpha wolves do not rule by force !! I can't emphasise this enough. In the case of our alpha male, he just "was" an alpha. It was there to see in his every posture, tilt of the tail, head carriage, he had this way of walking that just commanded attention from dogs both male and female. The males often anger, the bitches in admiration ! I can't find the words to describe this to you, and I have no videos of Hal, you will just have to take my word for it. I don't know whether you saw Shaun Ellis's programme "Mr & Mrs Wolf", you may be able to view it online somewhere, but the behaviour of the alpha male and female wolves was very interesting. They never got involved in anything much - Tamaska, the Beta Enforcer, was the one who controlled the pack, the alphas just lolled around having a good time.

Good point wolfdog

By give and take, I agree wolfdog. I certainly think that a dog's breed should always be taken into account. I personally think it is harsh to rebuke a labrador for hurling itself into the first deep muddy pool that it can find, or a collie for showing a propensity for wanting to round up livestock, or talking of livestock, the propensity my dog has for wanting to kill and eat both livestock and wildlife ! We might not like these propensities, and we certainly in the latter case we should take steps to train them not to chase and kill livestock, but it is unreasonable of us to express surprise or annoyance when they do.

To get back to the topic in hand, if you are a good human alpha, then this is what you should be ... understanding, but not accepting without correction. Firm, but with a gloved hand as it were.

Gnasher I referred to this a bit earlier in the thread but did I miss your answer? Sorry as I'm a bit rushed these days so I may have missed it, but my post was basically about, I don't think Mech says that Yellowstone is the correct, traditional model ... how do you get that? Or have i missed it and he does say it somewhere?

Whaaaat?

Well Mech himself did say that he originally followed one model and now doesn't, ie he doesn't even use the term "alpha" anymore...

Wys
x

An alpha wolf IS vastly superior to the pack, at least for a full year which is how long the pups to achieve maturity. By then the pups are fully conditioned by their experiences and possibly some evolutionary forces not to challenge the breeding pair.. aka the parents.

I disagree, it is very important part of domestication. We observe similar results in other domesticated animals. It was the selective retention of these traits that allowed us to fully domesticate the dog. This is one of the reasons for the lack of confrontations among strange dogs. To puppies, it really makes no differences because wolf puppies do not form packs - nor do dogs.

I don't know why you would say that, I think it is a fairly accurate statement. Your own hero Cesar Millan believes and spouses this idea, and it is also true of Brad Pattison - whom I brought up in another thread. I haven't seen Dog Borstal except a couple of full episodes and a few snippets in Youtube, but he seems to take the same approach.

It is also curious to me that I go out of my way to chose aggressive, "dominant", hard, sharp dogs; dogs that have a long history of sport/police work Dogs that are willing to take on and fight full grown men AND YET I'VE NEVER HAD TO TAKE THE ABOVE APPROACH.

Because there aren't any

But really: How would you know? Given that you think they are so rare; how is it you that you were lucky enough to get one? Why is it everyone that thinks like you also happens to have one? If they are so rare, then it also follows that there isn't enough data to make any conclusions to say they don't rule by force.

The breeding pair (aka alpha to you) don't have to rule by force because the pups have grown up not knowing anything else, there is also nothing to be gained by becoming the alpha because this means breeding opportunities which they can't carry out within their family unit. There is nothing to be gained and there is a lot to lose.

Have you never seen confrontations between strange dogs? How do you know feral dogs don't form packs or groups? This would make them somewhat rare amongst mammals.

I've seen plenty of confrontations, however I don't make a priori conclusions as to what was the reason behind it so I can put a nice little pink bow around it and call it dominance theory

I'm going by what the research shows. Feral dogs when necessary form lose associations but not a pack given the short term memberships and rapid turnover.

When the same feral dogs have access to easy and available food (e.g. garbage dump) they don't form any such affiliations and they pretty much live alone.

Hi Wys : no, DM doesn't say that Yellowstone is the "correct" model, this is my interpretation of his conclusions. By "correct" read "natural". Without man's internvention, putting pressure on wolf packs for natural resources, the Yellowstone model is the natural one. But given modern man's unnatural population explosion, Ellesemere (sp?) Island is likely going to be the future model, sadly.

My Obama comment is based on the fact that when Obama became the new President, he repealed Bush's proposal that the hunting ban should be lifted on the Yellowstone Wolves. In other words, for now the Yellowstone Wolves are safe from the hunter's guns ... but for how long?

Mech DOES use the word "alpha" but doesn't, if that makes sense ! He is saying that the word "alpha" is not appropriate in the "new" model with Ellesmere Island as the example of this. But in relation to the "old" model of Yellowstone, the word alpha is still appropriate. Ellesmere Island is the "unnatural" model, but most likely to be the future model, thanks to the pressures that man imposes on wild wolves. But ... maybe this demonstrates to us the incredible survival instinct of wild wolves, that they can adapt in such a short space of time to meet and overcome the challenges that their one and only enemy ... man ... imposes on them. Its very sad, but very interesting, all at the same time.

Promethean said :

"It is also odd that all the trainers that still talk like this, give the impression that all dogs will dominate you and take over the world unless we throw them to the ground and pin them".

This was what I was referring to when I said I will treat your statement with the contempt it deserves ! Cesar Millan does NOT say that all dogs will dominate you unless we throw them to the ground and pin them. This is just unfair and untrue.

I actually do not agree with him on the point of pinning, particularly in connection with wolf dogs (in fairness to CM, he says that pinning is not desirable with wolf dogs), so he is by no means my Hero who can do no wrong. There are some aspects of his rehabilitation methods that I am not happy with, but it is reasonable to say that overall I am a CM advocate.

CM aside, it is a gross exaggeration also to say that any advocate of the "alpha" philosophy (NOT dominance) thinks that we should throw all dogs down and pin them, else they will take over.

This is why I said I shall treat your 3rd paragraph with the contempt it deserves ! I know you were talking tongue in cheek Promethean, and exaggeration can always be both witty and good point making, but you are far off the mark here.

Promethean : you mentioned Dog Borstal. Are you a fan of DB? I enjoy it very much.