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Location: in a pile of nappies
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,945
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08-02-2011, 01:36 PM
Even if Sb does use a collar, then (IMHO) there is big difference between an experienced trainer using one safely and correctly (ie one who know what they are talking about) and some random pleb in the street shoving one on without having a clue!
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Location: in a pile of nappies
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,945
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08-02-2011, 01:37 PM
Originally Posted by Azz 
They've tried here, but Dogsey members and mods are always a step ahead of them
Make yourself at home - nice to have you here
I know they are both banned from a lot of forums. Googling Denis' name brings very scary results!
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Location: Elsewhere
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,227
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08-02-2011, 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
total nonesense adam all dogs will as lorraine pointed out time effort and paitence is all that is needed.
Smokeybear who posts here uses them and she is a good sports trainer promarc, the only advantage I see by taking longer is it makes more money for the trainer. Smokeybear says they don’t hurt, have you ever been shown how to use one?
Smokeybear, Alison Tohme, http://tinyurl.com/4fny9mu
Adam
Outing people
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Location: In an English country cowpat
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,810
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08-02-2011, 01:41 PM
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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08-02-2011, 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by Azz
If he didn't ask Smokeybear's permission to post - then that's extremely rude!
And I think Smokeybear should be allowed to punish him
1 day ban
5 day ban
10 day ban
Up to you Smokeybear!
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
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08-02-2011, 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
A utonagan - or any northern breed type for that matter - would be the very LAST dog I would use a prong collar on - not that I would EVER do such a thing. I have a Ute, and a Ute type. Both are rescues, and both pulled like the very devil when they each in turn came to live with us. Tai is massive, weighing in at 45 kilos, but within a few days I had him walking nice and relaxed with no pulling. How did I achieve this? With an ordinary nice soft leather collar (not the horrible choke chain that he came with) and a lead.
Ben was even worse - he is the son of our deceased wolf cross, Hal - and he was completely undisciplined with a tendency to be aggressive if you did something to him he didn't like. He was even easier than Tai to get to walk nicely on the lead without pulling - it took a lot longer to get him to accept my grooming him, especially his tail - but now I can do anything with him without fear of a growl or an aggressive threat from his jaws. He still has issues with being grabbed by the collar - you have to grasp him very gently - it is my firm opinion that some ******* in the past grabbed him and beat him - so I am going gently gently with him. He still will turn on your hand occasionally, but never now with a growl or a lift on the lips, just a threat. I just keep hold of his collar, tell him to sit so that I then have something to praise him for and tell him he is a good boy and has nothing to fear. I release the collar and immediately grasp it again, just to show him he's not going to be beaten, and then he will do whatever it is I want him to do. The very THOUGHT of using a prong collar on him makes me shudder. Utonagans do not respond well to pain - if you want a utonagan to walk nicely and not drag you over, do not try to do this through pain or fear. You will end up eventually, sooner or later, with a dog like Ben, who rebels and ends up attacking you. I am convinced that he would have badly bitten me by now had I not adopted the firm but gentle, consistent approach that I have.
Mia was similar - screaming with frustration when she got to the end of the lead and couldnt make me go further, backing up so she could get a runner and hopefully break my grip, racing round me and nipping my legs and even jumping up and nipping my bum
I could have punished her for all these behaviours and ended up with a dog who plodded at my side with now joy on her walks
But actually in many ways I saw that as a sign of how smart she was seeing what she could do to make me do what she wanted
- so I waited until she tried sitting - then I walked on
So when she gets to the end of the lead and wants to move on she knows she can manipulate me by sitting
so when I am stopped talking to friends Mia looks like an amazingly well trained dog sitting waiting - but actually she is asking me if we can get on walking But without any cruel device she learnt VERY QUICKLY that all her tantrums didnt work and to make me walk on she has to ask nicely
- and if she walks nicely at my side she sometimes gets rewarded with me jogging or walking faster - cos lets face it us humans walk sloooow
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
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08-02-2011, 02:23 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnmLfXYZS38
Take a look at this vid by a suppsed 'expert' - dont bother with the sound just watch the dog
She is stressed right from the start of the vid and is clearly not happy with being trained (which of course he does not see) It is horrificaly sad watching her
But look when he pops the prong on her - in that tiny amount of time how many times does she lick her lips, how unhappy does she look??
I dont like ANY of the methods he uses here - and neither does she - but she is clearly saying that the prong is the worst of them all
Dont listen to the trainers - see what the dog is saying - even just putting the collar on puts her under a great deal of stress
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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08-02-2011, 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
That doesn't prove the prong collar worked by pain though, it just proves that the dog responded better to it than to a flat collar.
Then when you have finished choking come back and tell us how it feels .
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Looking at the white dog in the picture with the prong on, it certainly doesn't seem bothered. In fact it appears quite relaxed yet focused. Adam