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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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21-01-2009, 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by Ace_Animals 
. You are right, the RSPCA doesn't condone the use of e-collars. But then again, where have I said that I condone the use of e-collars? All I've said is that if one of my own dogs decided to get a "thing" for chasing and nipping at car wheels (as the vehicles were moving) and all methods of getting them to stop were failing then I would give one a try. I'd rather save my dogs life than to watch one of them get flattened by a car. Ultimately I'd always wonder "what if" if anything like that happened. (Hopefully I'll never find any of my dogs in a situation where they get a "thing" for moving tyres anyway!
)Sooo, although I don't go around suggestion e-collars be used by all my clients who get in touch regarding their problematic dogs, equally, if I felt it was the only remaining option, then yes, I'd suggest it.
I've never actually handled an e-collar personally so this goes to show how often I've resorted to it.... i.e. never.
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Originally Posted by Ace animals
Personally, if it were one of my own dogs who were in that sort of habit, I'd rather use an e-collar to get them out of the habit than see them getting flattened by a tractor.Personally, if it were one of my own dogs who were in that sort of habit, I'd rather use an e-collar to get them out of the habit than see them getting flattened by a tractor. 
Sooo, speaking from my own opinion, I don't have any qualms with Cesar Millan and I do sometimes resort to using the methods you see on his programmes in my own training regimes.
Added Many hundreds of people read this forum (in addition to those who regularly post) and may see that you say you are a behaviourist and that you would use an ecollar. They may think what is ok for 'a behaviourist' is ok for them too.
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Location: dogsville
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,141
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21-01-2009, 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn
We have the worst dog "social" problems ever now, exactly the same as children problems, ASBO's raping, muggings, burglaries even murders commited by children, why? Cos you are not allowed to disipline them thats why, its the same for dogs! Dog should be treated like dogs and not reasoned with like a human being, it doesnt often work. Many dogs do not require any type of training or correction, just like kids, but some do and IMO CM does a grand job.
I tend to find people that have dogs with no issues are the ones who critisize the most, those with aggressive dogs or dogs with obsessive issues that CM has helped would never agree with you and neither do I.
Mini.
Re that PB, would you of been happy to let that dog near your dog in the manner it was behaving? Ill tell you now she didnt want to play! Manic excitement is very dangerous, I have boarded many PB's and that type of behaviour is not pleasant and is not easily curbed. I have NEVER seen CM kick a dog, the push in the side DOES work in breaking a dogs fixation, and to save any more hysterics or risk escalating an already dangerous situation, its a reasonable move IMO.
Flooding.
I wasnt familiar with that term, but it can work for many dogs. We have dogs that board with us that display incredibly unreasonable behaviour such as "cant walk on the floor" One dog we regularly board would not at all whatsoever walk on the tiled floor in the morning. If you put a lead on her she would scream and fight, no way would she walk, no amount of temptation, kindness or anything else would make her move. Now, second time to come out in the kennels, NO PROBLEM, walk out by herself and back again, no encouragement and no lead or anything, why? Our dogs are fed after the second exercise period!
she knew she would get food after going out that time and there was nothing in it for her the first time, a biscuit or splitting her food didnt work. One time she threw a wobbly coming out I just waited (instead of picking her up!) she threw herself round, screamed, protested etc.. and I waited untill she stopped. She looked at me and just trotted off up the corridor at my side wagging at all as she alway did the second time. NEVER does it now, doesnt stop, doesnt fight, doesnt require a lead at any time, why? I believe its because she learned that fighting and screaming gained her nothing. This is what CM does and I agree with it. Its interesting that the dogs owners had similar problems with her at home, namely wouldnt go out if it was raining but would wee and mess in the house instead, I believe they bought CM's book (first one) and not on my recommendation by the way, and the isssues they had at home no longer exist. His methods suit many dogs.I think people who have well behaved and well balanced dogs can see bad in CM more easily than those that have benefitted from his techniques, or those who have dogs with the potential to get out of hand and require constant watching and training.
My son is pleasant,kind, sociable and well behaved and he has never,ever had a hand raised to him or any sort of 'physical' discipline. He does however have his behaviour explained to him and we talk to him. He knows his boundaries much better than those children I have seen whose parents raise their hadns to them and scream at them all the time. It is the style of parenting that can be at fault, not the lack of physical 'punishment'.
There has been a massive increase in asbo dogs yes...but again we need to look at owners and training methods and why people have the dog. WE also need to look at popular training methods, the positive reward based ones aren't the ones seen on the tv...it is the likes of CM who Jo Bloggs on the street sees/talks about and emulates and i do believe (and having spoken to people in rescue throughout the country) that methods like that have also contributed to poor dog behaviour.
As for our dogs...well yes, Cosmo, thus far and touch wood is well balanced and well trained...and again has had no physical 'discipline' just positive, positive,positive.
We have had dogs that haven't been quite so easy,(understatement) but with time and patience they have been fine.
I was with a dog yesterday who was unpredictable in many ways, but by approaching him carefully (with an awareness of calming signals) he was soon like putty in my hands and actually volunteered a sit and lifted a paw asking for a tickle!
Given his behaviour I suspect CM's methods of approach would have been different.I think it is a tad harsh of you to suggest that the people who don't like CM have 'easy' dogs... Claire and Daisy certainly hasn't had 'easy' dogs...far from it and not every dog that has been through my door has been 'easy' but they have all ended up as gentle giants with the use of kind training methods. I would hardly say Mini has always had easy dogs given her experiences either....
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Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
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21-01-2009, 08:13 PM
To me, any `Behaviourist` needs to understand the dog first and foremost, which is why I was querying his `catch-phrases`.
I agree with the member who said this is going round in circles, though! And since no-one has been able to explain his theories, leading me to suspect that he doesn`t have one, I`m out of this thread.
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Location: n/a
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,459
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21-01-2009, 08:15 PM
My son is pleasant,kind, sociable and well behaved and he has never,ever had a hand raised to him or any sort of 'physical' discipline. He does however have his behaviour explained to him and we talk to him
Equally, a dog that has mischief in mind is not going to 'listen' to its owner. Clicker/reward training is not always going to suffice in every circumstance
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Location: dogsville
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,141
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21-01-2009, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by CheekyChihuahua
All well and good talking to a child but won't be so effective with a dog...............
Equally, a dog that has mischief in mind is not going to 'listen' to its owner. Clicker/reward training is not always going to suffice in every circumstance
Clicker and reward training will suffice..they just take longer!
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Location: uk
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 18,552
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21-01-2009, 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble
No but Dawn said about kids ebing out of control as wel as dogs and it being due to lack of discipline, wheras I think it is down to how they are treated.
Clicker and reward training will suffice..they just take longer!
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Location: dogsville
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,141
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21-01-2009, 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn
No Ailsa, Dawn said some NOT all kids! I also said you cant explain or reason with a dog like you can a child!! No anthromorphosising please!
Yes you did (Ithink) and that is something I also agree with as you know....BUT I think there are teachers and parents who bully and there are dog trainers who bully...and I don't agree with either.
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Location: County Durham, UK
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 109
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21-01-2009, 08:33 PM
I think the thread has gone a little off topic over the last page or so of posts (on the whole) because we are now seemingly discussing the rights and wrongs over positive training methods vs negative reinforcement or brutal/harsh training methods.
Of course we should all agree that positive reward based training should always work better for 99% of dogs but sadly (and I'm sticking to my guns on this one), in severe cases (such as those CM deals with as it makes better telly at the end of the day than just the average dog that has trouble with toilet training), then clicker training and reward only based training sometimes just doesn't work.
At the end of the day, the people who see CM (and the likes - be it on the telly or otherwise) are often there because it is their dogs last chance to improve. Sometimes people get so, SO frustrated with their pets' behaviour and/or it gets so far out of hand that it becomes dangerous to deal with, that the option of putting them to sleep is often looked in to. It is sad, but it is a fact.
Cases like those, that won't always necessarily respond to clicker training (when owners simply don't have the time or patience anymore to give up work and spend 5+ hours each day training their dog) simply won't work. It is a shame but again, its a fact.
So yes, this thread is going round in circles but sadly no longer particularly on topic as to what we think of Cesar Milan and his programmes.
Anyone who would prefer harsh or abusive training methods on all dogs over at least first attempting positive and reward based methods simply wouldn't be here (as in posting on here) - as they certainly wouldn't be dog or indeed animal lovers at all. We all have one thing in common - we're either all dog owners or at the least dog lovers - and as such, none of us would choose to see a dog in distress for any reason.
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Location: uk
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 18,552
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21-01-2009, 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble
Ooo it ended up with more on it.
Yes you did (Ithink) and that is something I also agree with as you know....BUT I think there are teachers and parents who bully and there are dog trainers who bully...and I don't agree with either.
DO you think that all the murderers, rapists etc.. are doing such vile acts because of the way they were raised or treated?
Im also not suggesting people dont like CM because they have easy dogs. I mean to say that a well balanced dog and one that is easy going and without issues is never likely to need any behaviour modification training, and I feel that that some of these owners are far more sceptical having never experienced the situations that some other owners have.
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