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landseer
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28-08-2016, 02:40 AM
Originally Posted by Swifty View Post
Repeating a command every 5 to 10 seconds would sound like a broken record and be silly and confusing. By the way every 5 to 10 seconds for 5 minutes is 30 to 60 times nonstop.............Nutty in the first.

Think before you lie
Ok... now i'm a liar.

So you're more interested in speed, drive the nail as fast as you can.

So show us some "gone in 60 seconds" video.
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Trouble
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28-08-2016, 07:25 AM
I dunno how I've managed to train all my dogs to a high level over the years without your insightful instructions jeez talk about dog training for dummies.
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Chris
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28-08-2016, 07:58 AM
Originally Posted by Swifty View Post
but dogs should not work for food
Why not? I did until I retired
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Gnasher
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28-08-2016, 08:04 AM
Originally Posted by Swifty View Post
There are no records for man at this time, none, so again you are fantasizing.
Clearly not only do you spout nonsense, you cannot even read and use the internet for something productive!
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Dibbythedog
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28-08-2016, 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by Swifty View Post
No click or reward is needed, except good boy or good girl............ I guess the good boy or good girl is the same as the click, but dogs should not work for food
A click is marker that tells the dog that is what you want him to do . Its exact, is especially good for marking something ( a behaviour) that is difficult to catch or is over quickly .
You then reinforce the marker , it doesn't have to be with food , it can be anything that the dog likes . Reinforcement encourages the dog to want to do it again .

"good boy" can used be a Marker , it can be also be used to tell a dog the exercise if over , a Release but then it gets confusing for the dog because if you use "good boy" as a marker or release , you need to say or do something else as the reward or reinforcer . They're separate things .

what is "praise " to a dog . A couple of words mean nothing to the dog , he has to learn what they mean just as he has to learn what Sit means, by association .

Usually when you use praise , you tend to use a happy jolly excited tone and make a fuss of the dog. Dogs learn that happy tones and relaxed body language means everything is ok and that cross harsher tones and tense body language means something bad might happen. So if he gets a good boy and a fuss , which he may enjoy and find rewarding .

Nervous dogs can also feel relief when they are praised because they know they are not in trouble , relief is very rewarding and a reinforcer.

I don't agree that dogs shouldn't work for food.
Dogs in the wild or feral will work for food , they hunt for prey , they scavange .
I like my dogs to work for food .
It satisfies their work ethic and also you could look at it this way , why should they have treats and food for doing nothing. Why shouldn't they earn then?
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CaroleC
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28-08-2016, 09:50 AM
I actually AGREE with 'Swiftie' in post #50, regarding the repetition of commands!!!! (Sorry Landseer, I do now realise that you are not another manifestation of a former poster).
However, a tiny treat does cement a pleasant connection between the word and the action in a puppy's brain, making it far more likely that the puppy will remember what to do the next time it is asked to repeat it.
A further benefit of initially training with food, is that the puppy can be clicked and rewarded in the exact position that will make the next stage of his training a gentle progression - invaluable if this is to lead onto competition work where every detail counts.

Also, what about the dogs that are no longer puppies? These have often had no training at all, and lack any motivation to please their trainer. The pre clicker method would be to push and pull these dogs into obedience, how much nicer to be able to 'catch' the desired behaviour, and reward it with a treat. There has to be some benefit for the dog to make it want to learn..
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Dibbythedog
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28-08-2016, 09:57 AM
Originally Posted by landseer View Post
That's not what I said earlier - you're repeating the command every 5 to 10 seconds until the puppy sits - say nothing else. And it generally doesn't take 5 minutes, when the puppy sits - reinforce the command then give affection. Puppy is likely sitting there thinking what just happened, I'm liking it. Rinse and repeat and you'll be surprised how fast that little bum plants on the floor after the command is given. Little bit of patience is all it takes.
I'm sorry , you didn't actually say you kept repeating it , that's why I ask what you meant. I thought you meant you said sit once and then waited .

TBH repeating something every five seconds /10 seconds , I think pups (and people too) would just blank it out and it would end up as nagging .
Also what can happen is that the pup doesn't sit straight away and sits after you have said Sit three or four times and then gets rewarded , he could get the wrong idea and think he has to wait for three or four times before he sits . This happens and it easy to teach a dog to do this by mistake.

If this works for you and your dog that's fine but for other people , it might not work so well.

The pups , Ive met , I cant imagine sitting in kneeling in front of them and keep saying sit until they sit , they wouldn't just stand there until they sit. they be jumping on me or looking around or something.

I find it easier to wait until they do it with out any prompting and mark and reward when bum hits floor .
Id use luring too.

ETA , you mentioned affection when i think previously you said praise , not the same things. affection (physical touch)can be much more rewarding and reinforcing than praise . But it depends on the dog , some dogs might not like be fussed and petted and might prefer , a high squeaky exciting voice .
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Gnasher
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28-08-2016, 11:57 AM
Hal was indifferent about being patted, and not interested at all in treats. He liked - in his aloof way - squeaky exciting voice with lots of joshing rather than actual physical touch.
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Swifty
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28-08-2016, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Why not? I did until I retired
But did you only move for your boss if he gave you a cookie?

I doubt it, and this is what food in dog training represents.
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Swifty
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28-08-2016, 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by landseer View Post
Ok... now i'm a liar.

So you're more interested in speed, drive the nail as fast as you can.

So show us some "gone in 60 seconds" video.
So now you are comparing dog training to driving nails. Is this the respect you give?

LOL
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