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Location: Australia
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,032
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Originally Posted by
Nicci_L
I disagree, I posted an example re - My own St Bernard. He couldn't have been owned by a family that could have done more for him regarding socialization, yet he turned out to be a complete monster once fully matured regarding how he was with other dogs that were strange to him, measures were always in place concerning contact with other dogs, he was muzzled on walks, and only walked when we felt it was safe to take him out, ie, late evening. Any other time he was let out into garden where he was fully enclosed behind 6ft wrought iron lockable gates. He couldn't have been more socialized if we tried but he still had terrible D/A traits which were nothing to do with the way he was raised or treated by us, he was never attacked by another dog to be made that way etc...It was, just the way he was and how he turned out to be, no one made him that way at all. He loved people, loved everything he considered ''his own'' but strange dogs were a no no, after he reached maturity.
Which is how any other Bully breed or Mastiff can turn out to be once fully mature...It's nothing to do with socialization or the way you treat them, that has no baring on things at all, it's called ''maturing'' and not being able to tolerate what is put in front of them once they've reached that stage.
You cannot blame human error for things that have been taken completely out of your hands once your dog has grown up.
Wondering if we should ban St Bernard's then as they can not necessarily be trusted not to be DA even with socialisation
Originally Posted by
Nicci_L
Nope, I think people need to see the bigger picture and work with breeds we have that are in a complete mess rescue wise, before any breed ban is lifted. All the resulting ban would do if lifted would create more of a mess rescue wise.
Considering the expense it is costing to enforce the pitbull 'type' law and the amount of dogs that they are seizing I would say the pit bull breed is already in existence in the UK anyway, so enlarge, it will not be re introducing a breed rather, treating them as other dogs are in rescues.
Maybe if they used the resource that they spend on trying to enforce a law that is proven not to be lowering attack and use that for addressing more of the rescue problems the un-banning may not seem so ludicrous.
Originally Posted by
Nicci_L
Explain why folks won't even risk not keeping certain breeds together when they cannot supervise them then ? As I know plenty, from Staffy owners, to Akita owners, Bullmastiff owners etc[/I]
So lets ban Staffy's, Akita's and Bullmastiffs while we are at it
Originally Posted by
Nicci_L
Because there is simply always a risk and one many people including myself are not willing to take.
I am not willing to have some breeds, each to their own with what breed they choose to own, simple really.
Originally Posted by
Nicci_L
Sorry, socialization means nothing...It can play a huge part but no guarantee..
No quite getting that socialisation means nothing yet can play a huge part in it
Nothing in this life is guaranteed, in dog ownership that is no different
Originally Posted by
Nicci_L
I think you'll find many breeds can become dog aggressive and there is squat you can do about it, whether those people step forward (some already have) and admit that, remains to be seen. I know a breeder of Bull Terriers whom shows, has dogs trained to a really high standard, yet all their dogs are dog aggressive, a breeder/exhibitor of American Bulldogs, again dogs trained to a VERY high standard but can't be trusted with each other or other dogs, a Bulldog living across the way that can't be trusted with other dogs at all in any way, of course I should put it down to those dogs being badly socialized with irresponsible owners
Which couldn't be further from the truth.
The whole nature vs nurture theory can be debated until the end of time, they have studied it for years with no conclusive answers except they both play a part to what degree is a mystery.
My thoughts are they both come into play, if you can get well balanced pitbulls and breed them and get a decent line going surely these dogs would be no different you the other bully breeds you talk of
Pitbulls weren't always bred to be DA, so surely they could go back and breed it out of them, rather than a breed becoming extinct because of it, the law simply doesn't work, the fact the law is going to 'type' is worrying as many misidentifications are happening. Dogs are getting impounded and mistreated due to no other reason that this law, their only crime being a 'type' and their behavioural history (of the individual dog) is nothing but a family pet that has done no wrong.
Staffy's are very closely aligned to PB's in history they were seen as the same breed, what happens when Staffy's are on the list of the DDA or as is being talked about in other countries GSD's and Rotties? Where is it going to end? If our own choice of breed becomes the victim of these laws I really don't see everyone being so amenable.
Originally Posted by
Nicci_L
Thing is, any of the above could change at any given time most people learn to live outside that bubble.
It's really foolish to think along the lines of everything will be alright all of the time, what might be fine one day could change the next.
But that is any breed not exclusively to PB's, if you own a dog that becomes DA as it matures beyond all the right 'nurture' the onus is on you to take the right precautions and not throw it onto a breed and decide they are all going to be DA and throw them on the DDA
Originally Posted by
Jackbox
That's now, what happens later you cant determine,
Same thing with bitches who live together, they can live together for many a yr, then one day out of the blue one may turn on another.
Most experienced owners will be aware of this, it has nothing to do with socialisation, but a lot to do with nature !!
Many an very experienced owner will testify to this, for many many multiple bitch owners, the situation will never arise, but I cant think of any one I know who owns bitches is not aware of the consequences of such a situation! it can come out of the blue , it ingrained , "bitches fight for survival, and will will kill if necessary to assert their place!
Again that why a bitch on bitch household fight will almost always end in one of them having to be re homed, or kept separate for life!
I know many dogs that are in one dog households and they are going to be one dog household for life DA or not, what do we do to rectify this problem? Ban anyone from owning two bitches? Not sure why it is exclusively worrisome for only PB's, I know many owners that have had this problem and it has nothing to do with being exclusive to PB's, they have been Dobs, Rotties, Cattle dogs, and the list goes on. So why is only a few select breeds get the distinct right to go on the DDA. I am thinking it should be extended beyond PB's and the two other breeds as what people have talked about happen in other breeds and the possibility being just as real in things changing as they mature.
Dogs changing as they mature can happen in any breed. So why is it only PB's that are being banned.
ANY DA dog should be handled responsibly and the onus is on the owner, to be PB is to be illegal but for another breed with those traits is okay. It is a bit hypocritical (of the DDA)
All my ramblings later, wary of this breed, definitely, wariness of some other breeds (especially the dog the next street across that is a bitza) definitely.