Some breeds can be dog aggressive though, my point is it don't need another dog to make them that way. You can't blame an owner for something that can be completely natural.

I had a St Bernard that absolutely hated other dogs as soon as he hit two years old, was fine with dogs that he'd been raised with, but anything outside the norm he'd go nuts, yet he went to socialization classes, loved going swimming, went to agility etc up until he was two years old, then he changed completely from absolutely loving other dogs to hating them. He was probably one of the only dogs we've owned we put a lot of effort into training wise. He was from a top breeders based in Austria purchased for us by a Jewish Millionare as a present for sending business his way, he was the absolute best money could buy so I can't put it down to him being badly bred. We lived with that until he passed at nine years old.

Great with kids, great with the family put another dog in front of him he didn't know and he'd go beserk. If strange dogs happened to step foot anwhere near him on walks or whether he was fully enlosed on our front garden he'd go nuts and I have no doubt in my mind if he happened to catch hold of a strange dog running loose without it's owner that went near him or came onto our property he would have killed - fully enclosed on our property - would that have been our fault?. We had the police here concerning one incident.

Regarding the police incident, a lady walked past one day with her Chihuahua running loose our dog was fully enclosed on his own front garden he was okay until that dog attempted to get underneath the gates and started to bark at him, he went nuts, the lady then reported us for owning a dangerous dog, so we had the police here just because he barked back and attempted to get hold of the dog trying to make it's way underneath the gates....Our dog was on his own front garden, with 6ft high wrought Iron automatic lockable gates keeping him fully enclosed.

Nowhere did I say we should automatically blame the human for the dog's temperament. What I SAID is that we should blame the human for allowing a dog aggressive dog to act out that aggression, to allow the dog to interact (either by accident, on purpose, or by sheer negligence) and attack another dog. I know a fair amount of people with dogs who are aggressive. They keep them on leash, are vigilant about doorways, warn other owners that their dog is aggressive, etc. They are very careful to keep that dog away from other dogs.

Now obviously some moron could let their dog loose to come after someone's leashed DA dog, but then that's not the owner of the DA dog's fault. But, sadly, I've had run-ins with a fair amount of DA dogs whose owners just let them run around loose and then blame it on the other dog's fault (seriously, I once got "it's your dogs fault because she's big and my dog doesn't like big dogs." ).

No , you did not say that, someoen else did, and I think the point Nicci and myself were making is , that a blanket assumption thats dogs are aggressive because of bad owners , is untrue!!

Breeding plays a huge part in the make up of a dog , you have to work with what yo u have got! and if that basic blueprint is flawed, you are on a slippery slope.

This includes all dog of all breeds or non breeds!!

I agree with the above, but that was not what I was referring to.

You said!!

Which was basically a statement saying all dogs are only aggressive due to bad owners!!

Which is in fact not true, and based on a very stereotypical attitude taken by many!!

Right, but she quoted and was responding to me.


It's also a blanket assumption to chalk it up to breeding. Some dogs who come from bad breeding can go far beyond that breeding with the right owner (especially from a young age). Some dogs from good breeding can become aggressive and nervous, fearful, etc. because of a bad owner.

And no two dogs in a litter are going to be alike. I just transported three puppies (litter mates) this weekend. They were dumped in a high kill shelter and who knows what the first 10 or so weeks of their lives were like (they're 12 weeks old now). But it's pretty certain that what they went through was the same for each.

One puppy was happy, excited, wiggly, and not fearful at all. He wanted to interact with us, rolled over for belly rubs, and was very much like you would expect a 12 week old puppy to be.

Another puppy was shy, but very sweet.

The third was absolutely terrified, hiding in the back of the crate and not wanting to come out to explore or meet people at all.

Three very different personalities all from the same litter. That third puppy could easily become aggressive out of fear if he doesn't end up in the right home.

To say "Pit bulls are bred to be aggressive" is just another blanket statement. Many pits born into the dog fighting world are destroyed or used as bait because they won't fight. Not all pits are going to be dog aggressive, not even if born to parents who are.

I disagree, I posted an example re - My own St Bernard. He couldn't have been owned by a family that could have done more for him regarding socialization, yet he turned out to be a complete monster once fully matured regarding how he was with other dogs that were strange to him, measures were always in place concerning contact with other dogs, he was muzzled on walks, and only walked when we felt it was safe to take him out, ie, late evening. Any other time he was let out into garden where he was fully enclosed behind 6ft wrought iron lockable gates. He couldn't have been more socialized if we tried but he still had terrible D/A traits which were nothing to do with the way he was raised or treated by us, he was never attacked by another dog to be made that way etc...It was, just the way he was and how he turned out to be, no one made him that way at all. He loved people, loved everything he considered ''his own'' but strange dogs were a no no, after he reached maturity.

Which is how any other Bully breed or Mastiff can turn out to be once fully mature...It's nothing to do with socialization or the way you treat them, that has no baring on things at all, it's called ''maturing'' and not being able to tolerate what is put in front of them once they've reached that stage.

You cannot blame human error for things that have been taken completely out of your hands once your dog has grown up.

i think we can all acknowledge that not all American Pitbull Terriers will be dog agressive but it is a trait prevalent in the breed due to backgroud. It is dangerous to think otherwise.

And i hope when the ban is lifted (i hope it is soon) that people are educated on this fact before owning one.

agreed you cant be blamed for the agression in that case. but if you did not supervise him properly after you identified the problem and let him off lead in public parks etc you should be blamed.

A massive part of responsible ownership is knowing your dog and acting accordingly.

FWIW, I read somewhere a few years back that Chows shared the same enzyme in their brains that Pit Bulls have, been trying to find the link - But can't!! It was a scientific study that had been carried out (So if anyone else happens to find the link I'd be grateful, I'd really like to read it again!)

I don't think the ban will ever be lifted, not in our life time and I can't say it's something I would entirely agree with anyhows...Considering there are just as nice perfectly legal breeds to own that are in dire trouble and need help.

This shows a complete lack of understanding of how much socialization and nurture can do for a dog. Many dogs are aggressive out of fear. And they're afraid of what they're not used to and have no experience with. The goal of socialization is introducing a dog to many other things: dogs of all sizes; people of all sizes, genders, ages, and movement; places with different floor textures; different noises; etc.

Some dogs will be DA regardless of socialization, but for many it can be stopped before they mature by proper socialization. Nurture is very strong and I've seen a lot of research recently on how important socialization is in puppies.

Even my parent's dog showed signs of what happens when not socialized to something in particular. She was never socialized with tall men and she was really scared of my best friend (who's 6'5") when she met him. It was not in her nature to be scared of tall men, but rather a lack of proper socialization with them.

My next door neighbor never socialized her GSD with other dogs (except the one she owned and the one across the road). Now he'll attack any dog except those ones. Is that in his nature? I doubt it. I just don't think he was properly socialized to other dogs and is now so bad that she can't even walk him during normal hours because he's that out of control. Maybe he would never be super dog social, but I don't think he would be that dog aggressive if his owner had done much more socializing when he was young.

I'm not saying that socialization is all and that there isn't the possibility of some inherent personality traits that can result in dog aggression no matter how much socialization you do, but I do think socialization is much more important than you are giving it credit for.

I should also add that sometimes a bad experience can result in quite a personality change and I half wonder if something happened with that St. Bernard that suddenly made him act that way. You'd be surprised how little it takes. I've seen dogs become much more reactive and aggressive after one incident with another dog going after it. Fear can do odd things to a dog.