Think you're spot on Sue.
To desensitise a dog you are dealing with their fear or phobia or another person or a sound etc. You ulitimately are teaching the dog to ignore what it was that scared it in the first place and caused the reaction.
In the case of working a dog to sheep this is completely the wrong way to go because you are not dealing with the same factors to warrant desensitising a dog.

I don't understand why do you have to be aggressive in your training to teach a dog to herd sheep? please could someone explain

As I've said previously, I didn't watch the programme but I will certainly watch it now on Sunday and get back to you on the training.
What we were looking at though was a dog not simply being trained to sheep. It was a dog that had killed sheep in the past and being retrained to do the job of herding them. Training dogs to sheep is completely different to any training involved in obedience or any other type of training.
I have trained my dogs and others with behaviour problems to every activity going. Working to sheep is new for me and I'm just starting out with my own dog. The training I am doing is nothing like anything i've done before because your training on the dogs instinct. Not training the dog to your acceptable methods.

I can see both sides to this arguement and understand both sides as well, I've done a teeny tiny amount of herding work with my old kelpie, but that work was nothing on the scale or expertise that Moobli and other workers do, I purely worked on her instinct (was shown a few very basic things from a sheep farmer) but I think perhaps there has been a small crossed wire here in this arguement ?

Anne (feel free to jump in here and correct me if my interpretation is wrong here) sees Barbara's shouting and whirling of the lead/(body language to perhaps?) as agressive handling/training and others, (Moobli etc .. again feel free to jump in and correct me) have said about collies needing firm training. Is this where the arguement is heading a bit ? What Mooblie and Megan see as firm but OK AnneUK doesnt ?

As other people on here know I've got retrievers so there is a little bit of common ground between retrieving and herding .. the fact that dog works at a distance. I can understand Barbara shouting at Herbie when he was pushing his luck/whatever because at a distance it's all you can do when your frustrated (been there many a time ).

As for the programme I loved it and was just glad that Herbie has a permanent home with Barbara

I have to say that Herbie is very lucky to be alive. I can't remember whehter they said he did kill but the video they should of him attacking a sheep clearly showed he was more than capable of causing serious injury despite the sheep being twice his size.
Whilst Barbara did shout at him, it seemed to work and he didn't appear distressed i.e. throwing himself on his back, he just did what was told. There was a bit where she had a whip (or something) in her hand but she was using it to flick between the dog and the sheep, from what I could see, more to keep a distance between them.
As I said at the start, he's very lucky to be alive, it also proves you don't need an electric collar to re-train livestock chasers :smt002
Becky

I watched the programme though and although it's been said several times, I didn't hear that the dog Herbie had killed sheep.

Can anyone actually confirm hearing this? I have recorded it but suspect it's been recorded over by now

I don't believe he killed sheep, he was a chaser and had not killed unless anyone can say differently for sure? :smt001

Wys
x

Your absolutely right.
A firm raised voice is fine but her threatening behaviour, raising of her hand to hit the dog and the lashing out imo is not how you train a dog and is very old school, Barbara woodhouse. Times have changed, positive reward training has been proved to be more effective than dominance and fear based training.

I saw the programme and,to begin with,thought that Herbie was handled in a manner that I thought was inappropriate. As the programme went on I realised that, for Herbie, the training he received was working and he was definitely a happy dog.

I can't really see how you can train a dog with sheep if the dog is on a long line - it must surely just impede the dog and cause a risk of entanglement for both the dog and the sheep as the dog had to be opposite the trainer with the sheep in the middle.

I thought the trainer had a great relationship with Herbie and particularly liked, and agreed with, her comment that the only way to get a dog back to you when it is off lead is if that dog loves you more than anything else in the world.

I can't say that I ever saw the trainer raise a hand to the dog and never saw her use the whip for anything other than a means of keeping the sheep where she wanted them.

At the end of the day Herbie ended up with a home doing the thing he was bred to do and enjoying every minute of it rather than spending the rest of his life chained up in a back yard or being rehomed to a place where he would more than likely end up being shot by a farmer for worrying sheep ( I don't think they said he had killed sheep but he had definitely been a sheep worrier and the trainer referred to him as a rogue dog when speaking to another sheep farmer).

I think the programme highlighted the problem of owners not giving full consideration to the breed of dog they wish to own and not doing enough research before they purchase - and not doing the training required to have a healthy, happy dog who is exercised both physically and mentally. But I also think that breeders should be responsible enough to ensure that they do their utmost to check that the home their pup is going to is a suitable one.

I had huge admiration for Holly and her trainer as well

I agree with Lizzie's post
I know very little about training collies for sheep work and although the methods used (shouting/anger) would not be methods I would choose myself to train a dog in this instance they worked.

I think the kind of training used illustrates the need to evaluate each dog separately,if Herbie had been a nervous kind of dog the training could have broken him completely. As it was ie Herbie being an adult dog with bad habits and an exuberant nature it worked for him and he certainly had a better life on the farm than he could ever hoped for in many homes.

I dont believe you said that! it matters not whether he killed or not, chasing would earn him a bullet, its no different, stock worrying is just that, they dont have to kill anything.