I think not health testing is one thing... but to health test and then completely ignore the results

I see what you are saying, but if the population is small and the health risks high, how many generations do you envisage before there is any chance of healthy stock?

Would you not worry about the puppies that were unhealthy and living a life where they suffer when the percentage of unhealthy puppies could have been vastly reduced by simply health testing parents to lessen the odds of those diseases being present?

Would a better solution be to breed only from stock tested clear of genetic disease and then going on to only breed from offspring tested clear and so on??

If a breed has a high level of genetic disease present and a limited gene pool so that diversity is limited, is it wise or fair to maintain that breed knowing that puppy after puppy is doomed to a life of suffering?

210 breeds of dog are recognised by the KC. Would it be such a major disaster if that number reduced if at the end of it the dog population overall was healthier?

Just musings, of course, as I'm not a breeder. However, I am concerned and very distressed when I see reports of dog after dog being struck down and owners left devastated
when their beloved friend suffers

a limited gene pool does not automatically mean that dogs within such breeds are 'doomed to a life of suffering' - my own breed ( BSD ) has a far smaller gene pool than the GSD yet is overall a healthier breed - in some cases the fact that a breed remains in the hands of breed specialists only, means that they are bred with greater care and knowledge....and it's this in depth knowledge of what lies behind our breeding lines that is the greatest asset that any breeder has .

that way lies madness....it is IMPOSSIBLE to only breed from completely clear dogs -and simply because a health condition has a test does not mean it is the biggest problem within a breed- so we could be breeding to eliminate the testable stuff whlist allowing the more serious problems to continue.

I'm puzzled why we are expecting dog breeders to produce completely perfect animals when we cannot do this with our own species -

I get that. Could I ask why you think that the GSD is less healthier overall? How has this happened do you think? If you were breeding GSDs, what would you do in respect of selection that you believe would make the breed healthier overall?

I get that too so is there an answer? Dog breeds are man-made and in a lot of breeds man has stuffed it up. Surely there has to be a way forward to end the unnecessary suffering that many dogs endure because of genetic conditions other than breeding them then having to end their lives prematurely???

It would be totally impossible to produce completely perfect dogs. Heck, we don't have completely perfect people . However, it can't all be bad statistics to blame when we see the amount of dogs suffering specific genetic conditions within a breed so it stands to sense that we are to blame for perpetuating them.

Health testing is far from perfect, but, wouldn't you agree that it's a start?

I wonder why, if the breed is in the hands of specialists, and if BSDs are so much healthier than the GSD, the majority of breeders in BSD do not conduct eye tests for HC when the breed is on Schedule A of the KCBVA?

Also we have to remember that BSD are still a "minority" breed in the UK compared to GSD.

Registrations 2002 - 2011 inclusive:

Belgian Shepherd Dog (Groenendael) 73 93 126 66 40 92 89 90 95 60
Belgian Shepherd Dog (Laekenois) 1 5 1 0 0 0 13 2 17 0
Belgian Shepherd Dog (Malinois) 55 59 66 74 86 92 129 92 138 116
Belgian Shepherd Dog (Tervueren) 220 150 178 124 169 195 140 75 142 92

German Shepherd Dog 14,177 14,892 13,578 13,165 12,857 12,116 11,903 10,338 10,364 9,893

If we look at health testing in this case hips

Belgian Shepherd has an (overall BMS) of 10

The following gives

Breed (variant, pre 2000 unspecified as the BSD was seen as a group rather than 4 separate variants)

Number of dogs scored

Range of scores

For BSD the range covers from 0 – 104 in Groenendaels and Laekenois, 0 – 60 in Malinois and 0 – 92 in Terveuren
For the GSD the range covers from 0 – 106

0 no sign of HD

106 is the maximum score available (left and right hips added together)

The next number is the BMS (Breed Mean Score)
The next number is the 5 year mean
The final score is the median

Groenendael 470 dogs 0 to 104 11 9 9
Laekenois 15 dogs 0 to 104 10 10 10
Malinois 175dogs 0 to 60 9 8 8
Tervueren 956 dogs 0 to 93 10 8 9

BSD pre-2000 unspecified the number of hip scores = 179

German Shepherd Dog 41787 dogs 0 to 106 18 16 12

Great post - and written by someone with a clear insight into the complexities of breeding dogs.

So ALL the dogs on the continent are in perfect health and with perfect temperament and conformation? That is wonderful - I know where I will be going for my next dog then.

You must have plenty of time on your hands to trawl forums to find posts from 5 years ago ... but anyway ...

"This is a post from the Pedigree database and certainly my opinion in that instance, but every dog has to be assessed as an individual. In view of what I discovered than, I do not blindly assume a lopsided hip score must be due to accident and can indeed be hereditary, my decision to use Damian for this litter was based on the low scores throughout his pedigree and the line breeding on his maternal grandmother with it's excellent hip background. In the past I had a son of Laios v Noort who had excellent hips, but simply did not produce them and was retired, you do not know what you are going to get until you get it, breeding is not just a numbers game. The low scores of so many dogs from old English lines, including the whites, should make them an ideal choice for improving hips, but it would be at the cost of reintroducing the old English problems such as Epilepsy.

While the GSD is numerically large, the gene pool is divided into two very inbred types, both the UK type and West German Showline type are very inbred and since they will not use each others dogs, they are perilously close to losing all diversity. There is more diversity in the lines of the working line dogs as each country with a culture of protection training with dogs has developed their own depending on the leading dogsport in that country, but the working line dog seems to be coming away from what it should be with the focus being on sport and the true balanced temperament is being lost in the quest for more and more drive and masking of the true dog by electric training, of all the dogs currently working at the top in UK, I don't know of any that are not electric trained and that is why I don't use them, I simply would not know what I was using in terms of self control, biddability and natural speed because the dogs are working like machines in a stressy way."