I guess you are referring to my statement of




And dont agree with it??

My point is that horses and dogs are worlds apart in the "buying a ready trained one"


Schoolmasters are imperative in the teaching the novice rider how to ride.

My quote above was not meant as literally a horse getting up to teach a person how to ride

More to the fact , when a novice rider is learning with a novice horse, neither of them will do well, neither of them will progress, the horse will not learn or have his education enhanced by a novice bouncing around on his back

Now put that novice on a Schoolmaster, they will learn far more.

1) the horse is already educated , he know the ropes, he is not going to get spoilt by incorrect aids coming from a novice rider.

2) The rider has one less problem to work on, he can concentrate on his balance, correct use of his aids, the horse (SM) will already be anticipating what comes next, enabling the rider to concentrate on his skills .

Hence the horse is educating the rider..thats why many people buy the old tried and tested Schoolmaster for their children...as the horse/Pony has been there done that.. passing their ability onto a novice owner, teaching them to be a better rider.

Obviously there will or should be a teacher involved somewhere, but I did not think I needed to state that.




Sorry, not really

I follow you on the education of a young horse, I think?

There is no comparision in one to the other.

A badly educated young horse can be spoilt for life, unless he falls intot he hands of a skilled jockey.


A Dog can be turned around in wks if it is just down to obedience training.

Experience.......that's what makes me think that.
I have no doubt people on here love their dogs very much,but I also have no doubt that there are a significant number of people out there that treat their dogs as 'tools'

Hi, I really think this has not a lot to do with this thread and discussion.

I know a little about horses, I trained them for a living many years ago.

As for a dog being turned around in a matter of weeks well... maybe, maybe not.... what if it's a bite work issue?
I suppose where I am coming from is, where is the merit in competing a dog someone else has trained? It's just my opinion

Moobli (post 65)

A thoroughly socialised dog probably will not remain so if it is to live in a very rural location where there is not a lot going on. Socialisation is ongoing as you probably know, and if it is schutzhund you are considering, then I think you will find raising a pup with a view to doing schH, a little different to how you have perhaps raised your other dogs, there is so much more to learn.

Experience.......that's what makes me think that.
I have no doubt people on here love their dogs very much,but I also have no doubt that there are a significant number of people out there that treat their dogs as 'tools'

No. I have taken on a rescue dog that needed a home. Her training is actually minimal...I am assuming she was used to flush game from cover. Nothing more. Did we get her as a pretrained dog? Certainly not...she had never lived in a house before...she is anything but trained for our lifestyle. so no...I haven't just taken on a trained dog. I have offered a home to a dog that was previously treated like a tool.

A thoroughly socialised dog probably will not remain so if it is to live in a very rural location where there is not a lot going on. Socialisation is ongoing as you probably know, and if it is schutzhund you are considering, then I think you will find raising a pup with a view to doing schH, a little different to how you have perhaps raised your other dogs, there is so much more to learn.

That may well be correct, but to be honest as much as we pet owners like to think of all dogs as being cuddled, cossetted and living by the fireside, many, many working dogs are happy to be *tools* of a trade they were bred for, SO LONG as they are respected and well treated.

I was being a bit pedantic when I posted about your new dog Ailsa, joking really.

However, a serious side to it is that your dog may have been treated as a *tool* by her previous owner - but do you think she was mistreated? Or was she a working gundog doing a job she was bred for, and no doubt thoroughly enjoying? Just because a dog lives outdoors and is used in every day work does not make that dog any less happy than a pet dog or less loved or valued tbh.

As discussed on Dogsey many times already, there are good and bad homes within all dog spheres.

I have said that many working dogs are treated as 'tools' and are brought out to do a job then stuck back in a kennel again. I use the term 'tool' to mean an object...not a sentient being. I think that is wrong.

I bet the dogs don't think it is 'wrong' though. Most proper working dogs (gundogs, sheepdogs, police dogs) are out with their owners all day and then put back in their kennels at night. I don't see see doing the job that they were bred to do (and if they hated it/were useless at it, they wouldn't be doing it!) makes them a 'tool'. When you consider how many pet dogs spend 24/7 behind the same four walls of their home, with their only stimulation coming from the back garden and the occasional walk around the block, I'd say the 'tools' have it pretty good.