I'm not going to trawl back through that thread I started nit picking, but I seem to remember it began as being about the link between taste aversion and the spary collar.


I don't think you did explain the method (as far as I recall), you seemed vague (which I admit is strange for you), you seemed reluctant to answer the questions that Tass put to you - you seemed evasive.



Reticent, reluctant,........ shall we settle for unwilling? You still seem unwilling to discuss the link between taste aversion and how the spray collar is conditioned.

When questioned again in this thread, you then resorted to the "You are a relatively new member....." it came across a bit cliquey, maybe you could do with brushing up on the people skills yourself.



I've had a look at the link you provided, and without carrying out a full analysis of the website, the thrust of the article seems to focus on "Changing The Target", and "Predictive Commands" - not quite the same thing as taste aversion, and specially conditioned spray collars for which the method of conditioning is unkown, and is being questioned.



I'm not demanding anything of you. As I said in the other thread, I'm open to greater understanding and further knowledge. You dismissed what I was questoning (fair enough), and put forward the method of DR. But when questioned on this method, as I have already said, you seemed unwilling to discuss it further and suggested that Tass attend one of his seminars. It all seemed rather vague which I found strange as your posts are usually quite informative.


Michael

So... how do you teach recall?

Cliquey? This forum?

Nah!!!! Surely not!!!

There are some good people on this forum it seems to me.

There is also a "certain way", that things are done and have been. Could be wrong - just my view??? Open to that!

but that is certainly the way it seems.

Shame. A real real shame. Just my view.

I am sorry you feel that way but I have very limited control over how you decide to interpret my posts.

You are of course entitled to answer or not answer whatever you choose, or to engage or not engage with whomever you choose however I cannot see how asking for detail on something I have been told I have wrong about, while also being critisied for not asking leaves me with any "acceptable" option?

I have tried to be clear about what I am referring to, by supporting it with quotes and references to explain how I come to my conclusions.

I have answered questions you have asked such as what I have said in the thread about recall training and in providing my suggestions you asked for for dealing with recall problems, and to avoid confusion I have asked two very specific questions, which I would still genuinely be very interested in your answers to, although of course you are perfectly entitled to decline.

I honestly do not see how any of that implies I am not being genuine in my enquires

It seems I am damned if I do ask, and damned if I don't

DR technique is pretty simple (like most good techniques)

Stop the dog getting his fix.

Replace the fix with something similar that you can control.

Put secondary fix's appearance on cue (such as ball)

Use this as recall cue

If that fails make the dog associate lemons or mustard with puking and spray the dog with lemon or mustard scent when he begins to try for his real fix!

Its simple but impractical (and maybe unethical with the emit).

Tbh I've never made a dog puke with an e collar. I've met some dogs who after experience unpleasent oral treatment (that hasn't been enough to make them puke) have become handshy/holdshy or vet aggressive.

I can't imagine an emit makes the dog easy to worm or medicate in the future!

E collar done properly will allow you to recall the dog from a chase. It will also allow you to correct that chase. You can go right out and start training regardless of how lousy the dogs toy drive is or how distracted the environment makes him.

Adam

But still, what exactly do you want to know?

The whole taste aversion thing has been discussed. DR uses taste aversion as a very small part of the method he uses. Around 4 per cent of dogs. The rest of what he does is reward based.


Already explained. Normally if someone specifically asks for more info I'd fall over myself to give as much info as I possibly can. If you cannot understand why I am not doing so here, it's not my problem to be honest!


No, on the whole I have very good people skills: I have to have.
You called me evasive, thus inferring something negative about my character. You could have simply asked me about this in a more pleasant manner, not been rude.

So there is the evidence of your lack of people skills; you had a choice but preferred to be unpleasant.

So you are not getting the best out of me.

It's not as if I've ever been unpleasant or unhelpful to you, in fact quite the opposite!! So there we go. Case closed.

(The cliquey remarks are a bit superfluous, I am not cliquey and don't like cliques).

I didn't say or imply that the full information was on the website. It is, however, in the very cheap booklet.

Because the conditioning is aversive, it's not responsible to go into full details on a website. Some people might read it and go straight on to the aversive bit without bothering about the rest. (However it's easy to work out if you think about it. The dog just has to be exposed to lemon in a certain way to make the spray collar, which in this case uses citronella, more aversive than a normal spray). Also, sorting out the dog's emotional levels is as important as the rest of it, this is explained in the article.

No? I don't agree. You are demanding I give you more information, for a start. You certainly aren't asking politely. However I expect you will disagree on this point.

Hopefully all this is now explained... it all boils down to people being pleasant or not, and whether or not posts encourage people to enjoy discussion or be wary of it. That should be simple enough.

Wys
x

I think every forum is a bit cliquey, because that's human nature. I don't honestly see this one as any more cliquey than any of the others. I don't think I am in any clique, I don't come here often enough for that.

JMO though!

I don't get what you mean about things being done in a certain way so can't comment

Wys
x

No, that's not true Tass. If a person writes in a certain manner, they will get people's backs up. If they post in another manner, they will be much less likely to do so.

I am a pretty easy going person to be honest , so if I am getting annoyed by posts, then it is either a complete personality clash (which can't really be helped) or just the way the posts are written.

I also prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt, but when it keeps happening I don't think I can be blamed for just thinking "here we go again..." and preferring not to engage.

No, see the above. I am pretty wary of your posts now though I will say that, but perhaps in time things will settle a bit. Never say never

Wys
x

.

Adam, without balancing out the emotional homeostasis of the dog, nothing will work. It's interesting how many people tend to go past this part of the method onto the more "active" parts - yet if this is not worked on, the method will not be successful.

As I've said, DR has worked with dogs who have been shock collar trained. Owners have gone to him in despair because they thought the shock collar would work, but it did not.

To be honest, most dogs can be controlled by using a lead!! But if a person has bought a dog and lives near to sheep and the dog is very predatory to the point where it seeks to escape the house to chase or kill, then the problem needs to be worked on.

In some ways, I think many dogs in this position are victims of owner "I want, I want, I want". I was always taught not to get anything if I was not ready for it or could not keep it in the right environment, or did not have enough knowledge.

By the way, the method is fully ethical as far as I can see, although of course others may disagree on that. It also does not involve making dogs puke.....
If that was the intent, the instructions in the booklet would say "do this until the dog pukes" and there is no such instruction, and certainly this is not a requirement

Wys
x

Hello Wys,

I agree all forums are cliquey in some ways. I suspect this one isn't any more so than any others.

I always think its a bit of a shame, but like you say, human nature.

Enjoy the day. Denise x