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Wysiwyg
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27-07-2011, 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
I am of course very familiar with the works of Ian Dunbar and John Fisher. I wonder if they have had to barricade their bins? Does anyone know?
Well, I think you can contact ID if you get to Dog Star Daily. Why not ask him?

Wys
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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27-07-2011, 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
I agree about it being stressfull not being told what to do....... Totally. That is why my dogs are told what to do. So they don't have to work it out themselves. Their brain power is saved for doing things that they really enjoy instead.

So can I ask, You and Wys who seem to want to use no a-ha's or anything else negative......

You notice your puppy chewing through an electrical cable, what do you do?
as I said before I use a positive interuptor (kissy noise) to call them away from it
also I kick myself for not puppy proofing my house - because in general my dogs wouldnt have access to things they shouldnt chew until I can trust them not to chew them

I would then teach them to ignore cables - and make sure they didnt have access to them

Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
I respect your experience, but it doesnt match my own. .

I have around 30 good friends with multiple dogs in most cases and to the best of my knowledge only one of them has to barricade the bin off!

If the majority of people on here do then I am stunned!

Hey ho, you live and learn.
I dont have to screen off my bin - and I can leave food out on my kitchen counters - now - because I trained when I first got them and made sure they couldnt self reward when they were learning by not leaving yummy stuff around

Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
If I found my puppy tipping over the kitchen bin I would kick myself for leaving the bin where the puppy could get at it.
I also know from past experience that shouting is a waste of time, the puppy will soon learn if you are not there it can go in the bin unhindered.
For me it is up to the owner to try to keep the puppy safe by removing things like bins and if you can't move it there are usually ways to secure a bin lid depending on the type.
exactly
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
Not applicable in this particular instance but something I have always wondered about when I see people advocating the use of water sprays to stop dogs performing some misdemeanour.
Do these people carry a water bottle around with them on their person at all time, if not what happens if the dog performs the unwanted behavior when they don't have the water with them Do they use some other method to check the dog on that occasion and isn't this confusing for the dog?
I remember last summer my friends dog started acting up loads
When he looked at it closer he realised it was only on the hottest days - they dog did bad things to get cooled down with a nice squirt of water
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sarah1983
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27-07-2011, 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
Quote: "Physical correction" means "punishment"---Says who??
Um...physical corrections fall under the positive punishment quadrant. I can't even think of a way to physically correct a dog without punishing it Physical corrections are things like hitting, kicking, jerking, throwing water in the face etc.
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Chris
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27-07-2011, 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
Also to be "too soft" on inappropiate behaviours can build tolerance in your dog so that by the time you really mean it you have to resort to stronger methods in order to get the effect....The word again...Balance
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here? What do you mean by being 'too soft' on inappropriate behaviours and what 'stronger' methods do you mean?
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Wysiwyg
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27-07-2011, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
I have referred back to my recent post as again I feel this thread has gone off track somewhat....My fault aswell sorry!
Don't worry,
...

Quote: "Physical correction" means "punishment"---Says who??
I think that was me. Speaking generally, it is accepted to mean "punishment" whether verbal or physical. That is what is has meant, historically really, in dog training.

Sometimes, it can be used to mean "instruct" the dog but even that can sometimes involve things like picking up a dog who has moved in the Stays and plonking it back down in place again.

A more objective view; Melissa Alexander who worked with some of the people who brought us an understanding of what "training" is, says in her book Click for Joy:

"Correction - a euphemism for the application of a physical aversive. The aversive is intended to communicate that the dog did something wrong. In some cases the trainer then guides the dog through the desired behaviour. The application of an aversive followed by the desired behaviour is considered instructive, thus the euphemism "correction".
...


It worries me that a trainer can be automatically judged by the words they chose to use before they have a chance to explain or demonstrate. I'm sure this is down to media influence.
I think it depends how you've lived your training life with respect (and not meaning to be judgemental). Certain word such as "correction" are used generally by dog trainers and mean certain things, therefore if you use them...

Unless you have altered their core meaning, in which case again there is confusion...

Certain trainers/articles have used these words in a negative way and so now it seems we are unable to use them to mean something completely different? The same goes for the methods themselves (Purely positive=Always good, Anything else=Always bad)
What you say (in boldened text) illustrates my point. I think we all have to be very clear and not try to use words differently.

If you now feel you don't use "corrections" then obviously you can say so

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Chris
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27-07-2011, 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
A quick word on "physical corrections".... yanking, pushing, poking etc

This should always be a method for "getting the dogs attention" NEVER to hurt the dog.

I always liken this to getting a persons attention in a noisy or crowded place: the dog is distracted or he is faced with a strong impulse/temptation, therefore You have to be "punchy" enough to cut through this. The correct technique should put a dog "off balance" rather than to push him over or drag him along.

Equally as important..As soon as the dog responds to you, keep them with you using high value praise/rewards.

It often makes me wonder but people seem perfectly happy to see a dog pulling its owner down the street, straining on the lead, choking and spluttering. but if they see the owner jerk the dog so much as once they would say this was being cruel?
In a crowded, noisy environment, if the person whose attention you want to attract is stood right by your side, it's unlikely that you would need to pull/push them off balance or even tap them on the shoulder to get their attention. Dogs on lead are right by our side. If we can't get their attention without knocking them off balance, then surely the training is insufficient and the dog does not know what is required. I doubt anyone is happy to see a person being pulled off their feet by a dog and most would advise training loose lead walking in this circumstance. I don't think it's particularly fair to a dog to yank, jerk or knock off balance when the exercise can be trained without deliberately applying any of them
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Chris
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27-07-2011, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
If I grabbed you by the arm to stop you running into the road, would I be abusing you?

If you couldn't hear me call, would you be offended if I tapped you on the shoulder?

Both are Physical...Nethier are forceful or given with intent to harm
I'm confused again, on the one hand, I think you are talking about training the dog and yet I read again and think you are talking about emergency situations. The two are very different although with the first, the second would be unlikely to occur
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Chris
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27-07-2011, 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
Aversion techniques when adminstered properly should not be associated with the owner...Therefore I cannot understand why an owner should get bitten?

Dogs aren't as stupid as many think they are. I can understand where you might get away with the vegetable plot example, but in the case of yanking, jerking, pushing and pulling the dog very quickly learns that it is the handler who is applying the discomfort
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waggytail
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27-07-2011, 05:21 PM
Firstly...Please, please let me reassure anyone here who may have misunderstood any of my examples or comments.....
I do not use or condone ANY rough or harsh handling of dogs. ethier mentally or physically.

I hope this is understood rather than to defend all the various questions thrown at me....unless anyone still feels very strongly of course I am happy to explain but I'd rather keep the thread on track

My question was about how these methods/words/products are portrayed in the media, the issue of media bias and the confusion this may present.

Thanks
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Meg
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27-07-2011, 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
A quick word on "physical corrections".... yanking, pushing, poking etc

This should always be a method for "getting the dogs attention" NEVER to hurt the dog.

I always liken this to getting a persons attention in a noisy or crowded place: the dog is distracted or he is faced with a strong impulse/temptation, therefore You have to be "punchy" enough to cut through this. The correct technique should put a dog "off balance" rather than to push him over or drag him along.

Equally as important..As soon as the dog responds to you, keep them with you using high value praise/rewards.

It often makes me wonder but people seem perfectly happy to see a dog pulling its owner down the street, straining on the lead, choking and spluttering. but if they see the owner jerk the dog so much as once they would say this was being cruel?
WT as you suggest in your post yanking, pushing, poking are forms of physical correction and for me as such they should play no part in the training of dogs.
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
This is exactly my point!
As soon as people refer to a "physical correction" its automatically percieved as negative?
"
....that is because many here see it as negative, what would you call it , positive? ...

Please see my posts below..
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
WT, am I missing something here In order to yank/push/poke your dog to get its attention you need to be standing fairly close to it.
So tell me then how do you get your dog's attention when you are not standing close to it and why don't you use this method to get the dogs attention all the time
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
WT, So if the tap is out of sight of the dog and possibly the vegetable patch too, how do you know when the dog is in the vegetable patch if you can't see it Do you see it in there and tell it to sit and wait then run to the tap?

See also this post..
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php...23#post2315123
...I would appreciate a reply please.
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
Firstly...Please, please let me reassure anyone here who may have misunderstood any of my examples or comments.....
I do not use or condone ANY rough or harsh handling of dogs. ethier mentally or physically.
really,
It seems to me from your previous posts that you are suggesting 'yanking, pushing, poking etc' are acceptable methods of dog training and to me they are unnecessary harsh forms of handling .
I hope this is understood rather than to defend all the various questions thrown at me....unless anyone still feels very strongly of course I am happy to explain but I'd rather keep the thread on track question was about how these methods/words/products are portrayed in the media, the issue of media bias and the confusion this may present.
Thanks
Waggytail you introduced various examples in your posts in a thread which you started, therefore I think members are entitled to question you about your examples.
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