that must be why hes called well ard, lol

No Inkliveeva ,I haven't ever felt the need to choke a dog, I can't see the point in inflicting pain and discomfort in order to get an animal to submit to doing something I wish it to do, not for ten minutes or one minute. Oh yes the choke chain will get a dog to submit, but I prefer not to have my dog associating being on a lead with me with pain. Would you really want to do things willingly if someone forced you to them by painful means? . I have already said in the post above I worked with people who used choke chains so have had first hand experience of their effect, I don't need to use one myself to know what they do.

not sure what this is supposed to mean if I stand on your hand I will be applying pressure with my foot but you will also feel pain as well as pressure.

To see what is comfortable to a dog and what is not, the exercise is simple, put a check round your neck and compare it to a half check or collar. See which is the most uncomfortable. Called me mad but I've tried it. Two of them werent' a problem as it was flat across my throat. One was very uncomfortable and put pressure on my throat.
I admit I trained my first dog on a half check. With my second dog I trained heelwork by chaning direction using no jerking on the lead. Have to say the second was far more successive and half as quick in training the dog to walk to heel.
I do use a fine check chain in the ring at shows but only because it hides under the coat better and that's all. It was never used for training.
At the training club I instructed at Chokes were banned and the number of people that came in with them put on the wrong way, used incorrectly, totally of the wrong size for the dog was nearly all.
If a dog is trained correctly you don't need to use something that is uncomfortable for them, you just put the work in and pick the right breed for you in the first place.

Please note the comparing dogs to children topic has been moved to a new thread here..

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=86915

I still wonder if advocates of the choke chain have ever taken the time to read a range of research on the subject and reallly given using positive methods a really good shot.

“In a retrospective study on spinal pain, injury or
changes in dogs conducted in Sweden, Hallgreen
(1992) found that 91% of dogs with cervical
anomalies experienced harsh jerks on lead or
had a long history of pulling on the lead. Uses of
chokers was also over represented in this group.
This strongly suggests that such corrections are
potentially injurious”
Karen Overall MA, VMD, PhD, DACVB Clinical
Behavioural Medicine for Small Animals.

That's just one of the pieces of research - why risk it when there are many other alternatives!

- non pull harness
- a wide range of head collars for different shaped faces
- clicking and rewarding when you dog is in the right place
- standing still each time they pull and only moving forward with a loose lead
- not taking the same route to the park each day!
- teaching your dog to only pull on command and interspersing periods on pulling and not pulling.

The list is endless i suppose.

Someone said about a dog that was used to a choke chain when they got them. So was my rescue, and this was in the days when choke chains were used more frequently, i took him to classes with it on, the trainer explained to me the difficulties choke chains can cause and the positive alternative methods i could use and i did that and stuck to them.

He also explained to me, as with all behaviours that have been built up, the behaviour will get worse before it gets better, so moving from a choke to a flat collar was not easy but the results were great in the end and the dog was far more relaxed.

erm no im not comparing myself toa breeding bitch, you know im not, though i reckon half the people on this site would be a little less condascending if I did. Im not the one drawing comparisons - i said that to make the point you cant possibly draw comparisons as one is a dog and one is a person.
Whats your point about serial killers ? you suggesting those that advocate choke chains are more likely to start topping people than those that dont ? Seriously get a grip

As for my view on choke chains - never used one with my staff as he would have killed himself and he doesnt resist a harness at all - my GSD bitch who pulls like billio on a harness and who is aloof to most treats i offer her - does seem to respond to a choke chain and i feel that i physcially put more strain on her tugging at her harness than i do a quick tug on the chain that loosens immediately and is removed as soon as convenient. Her recall is generally fantastic.
As for the point that someone else made previously as to why keep your dog( son/daughter ...whatever you want to call them ) on a choke chain when they have learnt to walk correctly, my answer would be why not? - the dogs been conditioned to wear it and once trained wont incite a tug on it anyway..
im off to jump on the new thread about dogs and kids but wanted to answer the choke point on this thread first

Mini, what exactly have you witnessed with the choke check to make you feel so defensive, I can honestly say I have never witnessed anyone hurting a dog with a choke check, I think if one has to pull at a dog with a collar on, it probably induces the same stress effect to a dog as a choke check would...your talking about these chains as if everyone who uses one sets out to deliberately hurt the dog, this is not the case imo, I used choke checks before because I felt my gsd was more comfortable with it on as it wasn't ever tight around her neck, she never needed a lead on either as she was so well behaved and never left my side, wish I could say the same for the other dogs I have owned lol x

I see so much harsh handling in dogs be it with choke chains, half checks, collars, harnesses, all can be used to swing animals round,, so many people need educated on the use of a lead, ,,, I always feel people lean on leads far to much, its great to see them train a dog with no restraints,, it also proves to the owner that the dog can be trained without such things, another thing I do from time to time is put an elastic band on the handle of owners leads, so if they swing pull or put pressure on the dog they get pung,,,iyaaaa,, but its amazing to see how much more aware of there dog they are when you do that to them, { and for anyone who whants to pick at that } I ONLY do that in the training club so there is no fear of bands pinging and dogs running off and being hurt,,gawd its bad when you have to justify every word so as not to be miss quoted,

Aye so its another case of human error, its not the choke check but the human inflicting the damage !
Hey stop giving away your secrets Shona lol x