I have no idea whether or not there was ever any accepted scientific theory about pack behavior in dogs.

However, I think the way most people use it is simply as a metaphor to help simplify things. Consider the computer you're working on right now. You have a desktop right? And folders such as those you might find in a filing cabinet? In actual fact it's just a highly complex bunch of algorithms that the average person couldn't hope to get their head around - if it weren't for the metaphor of the desktop.

Loosely speaking, people that work with or train dogs can be split into two broad camps (with some overlap). Those that have learnt through observation and experience, and those that have been taught.

Those that have been taught will typically start out with a theory (perhaps pack theory, perhaps something else) and they'll base their decisions largely upon that theory.

Those that have learnt through observation and experience will typically base their decisions on observations and experience. They will frequently come up with a theory or metaphor that fits with what they see. This helps them to pass on their knowledge to others.

The first group can come unstuck if the theory (which is always just a current best guess) is flawed.

The second group aren't basing anything on a theory. They're just using the theory to help people understand. It doesn't matter a jot if the theory is flawed provided people get the idea of what's being explained to them.

When it comes to dog training you'll often find that two people come up with very different theories to describe the same thing. I remember reading up on a training technique a while back where the metaphor or theory was that rather than being the pack leader in your dog's life you should be the prey (dogs are much more inclined to want to be with prey than they are a leader). Yet the author pointed out that despite the different metaphor the underlying approach was basically the same.

As a metaphor the pack leader theory works wonderfully. Another common metaphor is to think of the dog as a child and the owner as the parent. That can work OK too, but there's a tendency then to treat the dog like a little baby and that's not really good for it. The Pack Leader metaphor is a good reminder that you're working with an animal with very different needs from humans.

But always a bit of a risk when your learning of a subject is based upon a theory as there's a risk of taking it too literally and going off at a tangent.

Good post Scarter

Its something I have been thinking in one trainer I am reading about. For me she is a little to 'spiritual' about her beliefs but I can understand how her approach works for the dog - and how it can change the owners thinking

For example she has 'theres a dog in your face' game
The idea is you train your dog to deal with dogs running right up to it with basic counter conditioning and positive reward, then when it happens in the real world insted of the owner going 'Oh no!! There is a dog comming right at us, it might go for fluffy!!' and replace that with the thought 'Oh cool, we get a chance to play the dog in your face game'
I dont think for one moment the dog thinks 'Im playing the dog in your face game' He just sees the oncoming dog and expects you to give it lots of treats so the oncoming dog becomes a nice thing that causes lots of treats to come out

I think that makes sense - I need some sleep

Yes it makes sense to me. It doesn't matter what's REALLY going on in the dog's head. That will always be guesswork.

But if someone, though experience and observation, comes up with a metaphor, theory, image, story, game that allows pretty much anyone to quickly and easily behave in a way that gets good results with their dog then that has to be a good thing.

I tend to think that some people get too carried away with the latest theory and make the mistake of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The modern trend towards blindly dismissing anything to do with pack thoery is an example of this.

We have two Beagles. The oldest, a now 2 year old girl, was clearly an independent little thing from a very early age. I remember visiting the litter at 5 weeks old. Her 8 littermates were clamouring for attention and making quite a racket. Our little girl happily played with the toys and ignored the visitors. She was happy enough to be picked up, but just as happy to get back to her toys. There were some bullies in the litter but our little one never seemed to get involved and despite being the smallest was never picked on. The breeder told us that she was always the one off exploring - the first to escape from the basket; the first to escape from the little enclosure. She also made a comment once that our little one always wound up the others over the toys - she was smart and would playfully tease other dogs (and people). I would never describe her as a biddable dog - she's a beagle after all! But she NEVER challenged or defied us. She will tease, torment, outsmart, manipulate (both us and other dogs) but she's never had demonstrated any desire whatsoever to 'be the boss'. She doesn't try to push anyone else around and she manages to avoid having anyone do it to her. She cooperates with us, would NEVER bite, growl or 'complain' about anything we did. But I don't think she would take kindly to being pushed around - she'd avoid us. She's got no qualms about standing up to other dogs if really pushed but will never start anything - she's more of an avoider.

Prior to bringing our girl home The Dog Whisperer show (which uses the pack theory metaphor) was probably our biggest influence. When she was old enough we started positive reward based training classes with a teacher that incorporated ideas from The Dog Whisperer. Later (for practical reasons) we switched to another positive, rewards based trainer that didn't approve of CM. We found that with our girl we got good results from an 'ignore the bad reward the good' approach. The CM techniques that we tried didn't really work with our girl - or perhaps it was more the case that they just weren't necessary. We could let our girl on the furniture, in our bed, though doors first etc - it never resulted in desire for world domination. We found that we had to use something a bit more sophisticated than the standard rewards based methods (she's a beagle after all!). But generally speaking we never had to worry about anything other than training tricks - teaching our dog how to do the things we wanted.

Then we got a little boy (now 1 year old). Our girl's half brother. He was an entirely different kettle of fish. Loud, pushy, demanding - give him an inch and he'd take a mile. He's not as smart, capable and confident as his big sister. He so desparately tries to be boss but just isn't up to the task. Whilst he's happy, confident and outgoing he's not really a particularly brave boy. He'll quickly flip onto his back at the first sign of trouble....but as soon as the danger's passed he's back on his feet and working on world dominance again. He's always been much easier to teach tricks to - he's not as smart as his sister but that helps because his sister tends to try and turn the tables and train us! He responds very well to rewards based training and positive reinforcement. Our girl only worked for treats - our boy will work for a cuddle or a kind word. Yet he has always been defiant with us. Despite being very biddable and desparate to please when he's after a reward of some kind, a part of him wants to call the shots and that's led to various problems.

I have no idea what is really going on in my boy's head, but his behaviour fits EXACTLY with the metaphor of a little average boy who doesn't see a clear pack leader. So he feels the need to fill the role himself. He isn't very good at the job so quite often people don't do as they're told - especially his sister who ignores his instructions, talks to other boys(!!!!) and teases him and pulls his tail. He sometimes has to get quite bolchy and assertive to get everyone in line. Sometimes he gets a bit scared that he's bitten off more than he can chew and then he'll very quickly roll onto his back so as to not get told off....but then he has to work overtime to re-establish his position of authority.

We've found that if we work with that metaphor (he's trying to be pack leader because no one else is filling the roll) and set about letting our boy see that WE are in charge then peace descends in our home. Our boy is happy and contented because he no longer has the responsibility of the pack on his little shoulders. His sister is happy because the little runt stops trying to boss her around. And we're happy because the boy's aggression has stopped and both of our dogs are little angels and we can focus our efforts on teaching them all sorts of tricks, commands and activities using positive, rewards based methods. Pack theory might be complete nonesense, but if it helps people (like us) to have happier, better behaved dogs then it's worth consideration when faced with a problem. I don't think we'd have unravelled our problem with our boy with out this metaphor as the whole situation is just too complex.

I understand and agree with what you are saying, but...

The whole pack leader and boss and whatever to me seems to put the human in a bad mindset. Focusing on the negative, what the dog is doing wrong, and always looking out for ways that your dog might be taking over
It is a very small step from thinking your dog is being a bolshy wee sh!t and then punishing him for it.

I find if I work on the principle that my dogs want to work with me and to please me so if they do something I dont want them to then it is my fault for not training it properly or anticipating and understanding my dogs drives

We prob train in similar ways - and I am not saying you are getting angry - but can you see how the mindset of some can be to get angry at the dog who is trying to take over and they have to crack down on that.

I think it simply comes down to what works for you. A lot will depend on the owner and a lot will depend on the dog. I think you have to live and let live and respect that different things work for different people (and dogs).

In the case of my girl I tend to think in terms of "how can I get her to want to do what I want" or ignoring the bad and rewarding the good. So probably I think very much like you.

But with my boy that mindset leads to trouble time and time again. It's not in my nature to "be the boss". My inclination is to treat my dogs like babies and to consider their feelings. Ultimately this makes my boy unhappy and leads to problem behaviour. The girl is different and we can get away with it with her. Ceasar Millan's 'teachings' on how to act around your dog is easy for me to grasp and it results in me behaving the right way around my boy. But STILL with him I probably do the same thing as you most of the time. It's just that we really do need to have a routine that constantly reinforces the fact that we've got everything under control and that his job is just to relax and enjoy life.