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Location: Wiltshire, UK
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,374
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07-03-2009, 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by Moobli 
This thread has turned very interesting, if a little OT.
I used to be, very strongly, in the camp of only breeding from proven workers, where collies are concerned anyway. I am actually starting to broaden my mind and see things from different perspectives.
Regarding breeding solely for a pet market, I think if it is done responsibly - ie all health checks done, temperament of both parents is excellent, homes lined up for all the pups, the parents are good examples of the breed etc, then I don't have any problem with it whatsoever.
Using the showring as a yardstick to measure breed standards by can be rather misleading. Just look at what the showring is doing to modern day GSDs
What about one of the Crufts winners not being able to breathe properly and having to have surgery to rectify that? What about a top winning Cavalier suffering from a horrendous genetic disease? I wouldn't want a dog such as those. A winner in the show ring is just one man (or woman's) opinion after all.Unfortunately many working bred dogs are just too work-minded for the average pet home. I used to think that if you can't handle the inherent instincts of a working breed then you should choose a different breed. How arrogant is that?! There will always be working dogs in pet homes - border collies, working springers etc, so why not breed pet border collies/springers etc who can live happily in a pet environment without going stir crazy?
Also, you can breed a fab show dog to an equally fab show dog and end up with flawed (in show terms) pets. You can breed a multi sheepdog trial winner to a proven working bitch, and still end up with pups that can't work. There are no guarantees when breeding dogs.
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Location: n/a
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07-03-2009, 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by Moobli
This thread has turned very interesting, if a little OT.
I used to be, very strongly, in the camp of only breeding from proven workers, where collies are concerned anyway. I am actually starting to broaden my mind and see things from different perspectives.
Regarding breeding solely for a pet market, I think if it is done responsibly - ie all health checks done, temperament of both parents is excellent, homes lined up for all the pups, the parents are good examples of the breed etc, then I don't have any problem with it whatsoever.
Using the showring as a yardstick to measure breed standards by can be rather misleading. Just look at what the showring is doing to modern day GSDs
What about one of the Crufts winners not being able to breathe properly and having to have surgery to rectify that? What about a top winning Cavalier suffering from a horrendous genetic disease? I wouldn't want a dog such as those. A winner in the show ring is just one man (or woman's) opinion after all.Unfortunately many working bred dogs are just too work-minded for the average pet home. I used to think that if you can't handle the inherent instincts of a working breed then you should choose a different breed. How arrogant is that?! There will always be working dogs in pet homes - border collies, working springers etc, so why not breed pet border collies/springers etc who can live happily in a pet environment without going stir crazy?
Also, you can breed a fab show dog to an equally fab show dog and end up with flawed (in show terms) pets. You can breed a multi sheepdog trial winner to a proven working bitch, and still end up with pups that can't work. There are no guarantees when breeding dogs.
Absolutely. You have explained the whole subject exactly how I would have liked to but I'm not so good at explaining myself in writing
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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07-03-2009, 01:01 PM
the T/S asked 'How do you know if your dog has a good breeding line? What makes a good breeding line?' and I gave my opinion on what I consider to be a good breeding line. I can't comment on Jackson, I don't know anything about him other than a few vague details.
Originally Posted by Moobli
Regarding breeding solely for a pet market, I think if it is done responsibly - ie all health checks done, temperament of both parents is excellent, homes lined up for all the pups, the parents are good examples of the breed etc, then I don't have any problem with it whatsoever.
.
the cry 'oh they are only going to be pets' gives the BYB an excuse to breed from any dog health tested or not. These people frequently don't register their litters either so no one knows how many litters they breed or where the dogs come from .
Who is to say if a pet is a good examples of the breed, to everyone there pet is beautiful but that doesn't make them good examples of the breed. If people are not prepared to put their dogs forward for the scrutiny of others who know about the breed I don't think most of them should be breeding at all.
(I say most because there are exceptions one being those who have shown and been in a breed for many years but are no longer able to show for health reasons)
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Location: Scotland
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07-03-2009, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha
Sorry Moobli I disagree
the cry 'oh they are only going to be pets' gives the BYB an excuse to breed from any dog health tested or not. These people frequently don't register their litters either so no one knows how many litters they breed or where the dogs come from .
Who is to say if a pet is a good examples of the breed, to everyone there pet is beautiful but that doesn't make them good examples of the breed. If people are not prepared to put their dogs forward for the scrutiny of others who know about the breed I don't think most of them should be breeding at all.
(I say most because there are exceptions one being those who have shown and been in a breed for many years but are no longer able to show for health reasons)
I think BYB will continue to breed no matter what, so I don't personally think that argument stands up tbh. BYB also will not health test, have homes lined up etc etc. I only agree with *pet* litters being bred responsibly.
For the people who disagree with *pets* being bred, what do they feel about dogs being bred from agility/obedience/schutzhund dogs etc? These are neither working nor show dogs. Does that mean they will be inferior? IMO certainly not ... IF they are responsibly bred.
IMO show dogs are also NOT the yardstick by which a breed should be measured in many cases - as breeds seem to go through fads and it is only one man's opinion after all.
My youngest GSD is from parents who are not worked (as such) or shown. However, pups from this breeder have gone on to do working trials, schutzhund, agility and trained as personal protection dogs, as well as being loving, laidback, stable pets. I personally would far rather buy from such a breeder (who also health tests, has fab dogs, homes always lined up etc) than from some of the show breeders who have extremely exaggerated dogs, who may win plenty of shows, but are not my type of dog at all.
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
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07-03-2009, 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by Moobli
Different viewpoints are what forums are all about
I think BYB will continue to breed no matter what, so I don't personally think that argument stands up tbh. BYB also will not health test, have homes lined up etc etc. I only agree with *pet* litters being bred responsibly.
For the people who disagree with *pets* being bred, what do they feel about dogs being bred from agility/obedience/schutzhund dogs etc? These are neither working nor show dogs. Does that mean they will be inferior? IMO certainly not ... IF they are responsibly bred.
l.
I think there are too many dogs being bred altogether and we need more regulation not less. Saying it is OK for any pet owner to breed is adding to the problem you are giving permission to the BYBs to breed. I don't see why agility /obedience dogs etc can't come from dogs bred by responsible breeders or from rescue dogs. I don't think people should be breeding from pet dogs with the excuse they are going to be used for these activities.
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Location: Scotland
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 19,298
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07-03-2009, 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha
Moobli
I think there are too many dogs being bred altogether and we need more regulation not less. Saying it is OK for any pet owner to breed is adding to the problem you are giving permission to the BYBs to breed. I don't see why agility /obedience dogs etc can't come from dogs bred by responsible breeders or from rescue dogs. I don't think people should be breeding from pet dogs with the excuse they are going to be used for these activities.
I am meaning responsible breeders breeding dogs for the pet market, other than the show or working market.There are definitely too many dogs being bred - which is supported by the unfortunate amount of dogs in rescue and pts each year
However, who should decide who is allowed to breed and who isn't?
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
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07-03-2009, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by Moobli
I am not advocating pet owners to breed their pet dog to another pet dog. I think we are at cross purposes here
I am meaning responsible breeders breeding dogs for the pet market, other than the show or working market.
if they are not breeding to another pet dog what are they breeding from? Good breeders won't let their stud dogs be used by any old pet breeder.Moobli
We are back to the original question here .. ''How do you know if your dog has a good breeding line? What makes a good breeding line? ''Responsible good breeders don't just breed for the pet market they breed to keep a good line going/ to have a puppy to keep /to breed the best . They don't breed very often but when they do they can't possibly keep every puppy they breed. All the puppies in the litters they breed may well be good examples of the breed and of show quality (as is the case with my current dog Chloe) and they will be sold as pets even though they are of equal quality to the dogs which are kept to show and to be bred from. So if you like the pet puppies are a 'by product' of breeding the best.
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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07-03-2009, 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by Moobli
Regarding breeding solely for a pet market, I think if it is done responsibly - ie all health checks done, temperament of both parents is excellent, homes lined up for all the pups, the parents are good examples of the breed etc, then I don't have any problem with it whatsoever.
I am sorry I think I have misunderstood your post .You don't then mean people with no knowledge of a breed breeding from pet dogs to produce pets? You are saying responsible knowledgeable breeders breeding only to create pets.
The reason I misunderstood is because to my mind responsible breeders don't just breed for a pet market as I have described in my post above, therefore I assumed you meant people breeding from pets to make more pets.
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Location: Scotland
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Posts: 19,298
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07-03-2009, 03:40 PM
I am sorry I think I have misunderstood your post .You don't then mean people with no knowledge of a breed breeding from pet dogs to produce pets? You are saying responsible knowledgeable breeders breeding only to create pets.
The reason I misunderstood is because to my mind responsible breeders don't just breed for a pet market as I have described in my post above, therefore I assumed you meant people breeding from pets to make more pets.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I am talking about responsible, knowledgeable breeders who breed mainly for the pet market. Why would you think that responsible breeders don't breed for a pet market? Surely show dogs and many working dogs are pets also??
Do you think there is some dog snobbery regarding *pet* dogs, as though they are less important than show or working dogs?
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,483
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07-03-2009, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by Moobli
Yes, I am talking about responsible, knowledgeable breeders who breed mainly for the pet market. Why would you think that responsible breeders don't breed for a pet market? Surely show dogs and many working dogs are pets also??
Do you think there is some dog snobbery regarding *pet* dogs, as though they are less important than show or working dogs?
as I keep saying I don't think responsible breeders breed mainly for the pet market they breed for other reasons as explained above. They know there are too many dogs out there already and that they are responsible for the dogs they produce for their entire lives. They know may need to take a puppy /dog back and to provide for it and they won't just churn puppies out for the 'pet market' irrespective of the quality of the puppies they produce .
All the dogs a good breeder produces will be pets, but pets of the best quality bred from dogs deemed to be excellent examples of their breed in every way and scrutinised by many other good breeders before being bred from.
This goes for dogs from working lines too but I do have reservations about working dogs (who are of course pets as well to their owners) going to ordinary 'pet homes' and not being worked if the new owners are not capable of giving them the mental stimulation and exercises they need.
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