Shona your right, far too many scaggy trainers, jumping on the band wagon of the pet market, and no i can't see the need for a pinch on a normal driven dog,they have their place in training,but good foundation is what is needed, if i was to see a so called trainer hit or drag a dog about in a trainning class, then i would step in,i can't stand crulty, as i have said before Name and shame trainers that use a heavy handed approach, and if people do have a problem dog the taken it to a Qualified trainer and work on the problem.

As in any walk of life some people resort to the excessive, tools are what we make of them, i have yet to see the pinches sharpened here in the uk, even a top compertition dog will end up not working properley if is is spiked in the neck, and it will cause avoidence when out on the field working, looseing valubale points, which is not what you want,Europes methords can be alot harsher than here,
I'm not for all and sundry usining the collar, these same people will also string dogs up on check and flat collars as well, they are just very bad traininers full stop.

I've seen a lot of dogs with prong collars. Not big aggressive challenging dogs but JRTs, cocker spaniels and other small dogs who weren't a bit aggressive. Their crime was pulling on the lead and prong collars solved the problem.

The trouble is if a trainer uses methods like that lots of people will follow his example and what might be needed in very exceptional circumstances becomes the norm.

They are used as every day collars in the States,

No, I don't believe these contraptions "solve" most pulling problems but mask them. I bet as soon as a normal flat collar is put on some, if not all, of these dogs will pull. The folk who use these things will probably say something along the lines of "oh, as soon as the prong collar is put on he walks perfectly to heel". Is it any wonder the dog does, with these metal prongs pinching the skin if the dog so much as moves an inch in front on the owner.

These dogs should be consistantly trained on flat collars to walk to heel, not always resorting to prong collars, imo.

To me, using prong collars/electric collars and the likes on a dog who one has had from a young pup, is a failure on the owners part. If these collars are "needed" on the adult dog then the training has not been appropriate for that particular dog (excluding dogs who might have health issues etc).

No, Shona, I would put money on the fact that they don't. I agree with you that these prong collars are for lazy trainers.

There is something seriously wrong when folk feel the need to issue most dogs with a prong collar, especially small dogs who people have had since a small puppy. Surely, if the trainer is good, they won't need to resort to prong collars for around 80% of the dogs in class. Surely these dogs can be taught to walk to heel on a flat collar, and trained using a flat collar. Of course they can. Where is the savvy of these trainers who feel the need to use prong collars?

I'm not a dog training, and I've not had much experience with young puppies. However, my small dog walks to heel perfectly on a flat collar due to the appropriate training for her.....It's not rocket science.

i agree with if you have had a dog from a pup then its down to yourself as to how it is trained however being a breed and show person i sometimes get dogs that are not brought up my way ( with nice manners etc) and yes i do use a half check however i alsways ensure that when fitted even with the check part pulled tight it is not tight round the dogs neck and i can still fit my fingers under the collar as you would a flat collar and often i use them for the ones not brought up my way only because most people think its normal and quite ok to have a 5 stone bull terrier pulling your arms off ! i myself believe any dog big or small should walk nicely i simply use the check collars to help me to train the dog to walk nice its more the sound than anything else and my voice and other methods like stopping walking getting them in a calm zone etc that stops the pulling.

now my pyrenean is a big ole dog and had her from a pup and have never ever had to use a check collar always been a flat and then roll collar as fur grew in she is a great walker as have any that i have brought up and trained from pup.

i agree with the poster ( sorry forgot who said it) that if you have an aggressive dog and you treat it with aggression ie prong collar or beating whatever into submission it is a ticking bomb if you have tried every avenue of fair but firm and every avenue of any medical reason for the aggression and still have not solved it then i think it would be more prudent to pts than have a ticking bomb on a lead. after all we hear far too much as it is of dog attacks etc and the media frenzy that follows.

but again in saying the above it is my opinion i have never clapped eyes on a prong collar or know how to use one and i dont think i would ever want to either but thats my way of doing things if you know how and when and why to use one then it is with your own knowledge you use one.
but if it is being used to string a dog up or be abusive to it then still stand by my view of way too uneeded

Good god,poor dogs,no animal needs to be treated like that,the guy should have a collar round his neck,see how he likes it.

So what you're saying the best trainers in the world aren't capable of properly training a dog?

Try getting/training at thier level and if you can get a dog to do the way they do, i'll be in awe but otherwise your statement is pure noncense

Do a search " NVBK 1" at www.dailymotions.com these dogs are trained with e-collar and prong

Avoidence: don't see that
Unhappy dog not willing to work: don't see that

Their training is based on using the approiated tool when necessary by experienced trainers.

A prong is never used as a collar for walking. It is a correction tool and not a tool used to hold a dog pulling (in fact that is dangerous because it can get loose) . 2 lines - 2 collars


Greetings

Johan

what level would that be? sorry the link didnt work for me. I train dogs to the top level of obed, I have dogs that will track, do attack work, all without the aid of prongs or E collars,