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Fipps
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30-08-2016, 07:33 PM
Swifty
Treats are not used in proper training, just in the training of dogs being trained by people who do not know how to train a dog in the first place

Fipps
They are useful & usable for tricks & stuff.
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Gnasher
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30-08-2016, 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by Swifty View Post
You are on the right track here, but voice is only important when the physical touch reinforcement can not be given, in a full praise situation you will touch and praise at the same time. I teach all my dogs to retrieve and catch this way. The negative with food is that the dog becomes a ticket collector, always returning for the price of admission or work which is a cookie.
I didn't touch him as he simply did not like it particularly - he was indifferent to caressing. At most, he would accept a quick ruffle of the ears but no more than that. Excited voice and body language was definitely the way to praise Hal!
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30-08-2016, 07:46 PM
chris
Not if you vary the reinforcement.

Fipps
Food is not a universal reinforcer for all events, hunger increases the 'strength of food as a reinforcer but experienced trainers suggest keeping the dog without food for 3 days to get it motivated for food, see link to that suggestion by the third poster at link below

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30-08-2016, 08:05 PM
The vid below shows a dogs response to positive reinforced stimuli, I suppose (according to many here) all the owner in the vid below needed to was hold a food treat up & the dog would have come running back.......

......which northern stage celeb said..."Nawt so queer as folks"

See link
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Chris
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30-08-2016, 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by Fipps View Post
The vid below shows a dogs response to positive reinforced stimuli, I suppose (according to many here) all the owner in the vid below needed to was hold a food treat up & the dog would have come running back.......

......which northern stage celeb said..."Nawt so queer as folks"

See link
Fenton's cousin in Richmond Park - YouTube
Ah the misconception of using treats. Treats are not bribes, they are reinforcers (as can be play, praise, fuss etc).

They are used to train, not to wave in front of a dog in full chase mode.
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Fipps
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31-08-2016, 07:07 AM
They are used to train, not to wave in front of a dog in full chase mode

I 'think'? you mean, they are useful for teaching the basic action if used as a lure type stimulus +under quiet circumstances 'as perceived by the dog' they have a reinforcing effect under those circumstances, all that is Skinners theory of learning.

What Swifty is saying, or seems to be saying, is that the relationship between himself & his dog is a far more powerful stimulus than Skinnerian learning which involves only any external stimulus.
In the case of food, Skinner says, in 1951, the dog must be hungry, he also says it should not be fed for 3 days, which is the same as that poster in that chat room says, or has found, some 60 years later, the clear implication is that the dog is not after food per say, it is trying to stop its' hunger, that is a basic evolutionary behaviour.
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Chris
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31-08-2016, 08:01 AM
Originally Posted by Fipps View Post
[I]

I 'think'? you mean, they are useful for teaching the basic action if used as a lure type stimulus +under quiet circumstances 'as perceived by the dog' they have a reinforcing effect under those circumstances, all that is Skinners theory of learning.
The are very useful as a lure, but as the majority of dogs value food above all else, they are extremely useful as a reward for a job well done.

What Swifty is saying, or seems to be saying, is that the relationship between himself & his dog is a far more powerful stimulus than Skinnerian learning which involves only any external stimulus

In the case of food, Skinner says, in 1951, the dog must be hungry, he also says it should not be fed for 3 days, which is the same as that poster in that chat room says, or has found, some 60 years later, the clear implication is that the dog is not after food per say, it is trying to stop its' hunger, that is a basic evolutionary behaviour.
A dog doesn't have to be starved to appreciate food. Heck, I don't have to be starved to appreciate chocolate .

Training doesn't start at the end, it -like everything else - starts at the beginning. Teach the dog in gradual steps, increasing the distance, distraction and duration as you go.

Waving treats, is not training. Offering reward is
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31-08-2016, 08:30 AM
Originally Posted by Fipps View Post
chris
Not if you vary the reinforcement.

Fipps
Food is not a universal reinforcer for all events, hunger increases the 'strength of food as a reinforcer but experienced trainers suggest keeping the dog without food for 3 days to get it motivated for food, see link to that suggestion by the third poster at link below

APDT Positive Training Recall, Starve Dog For 3 Days Method = 9 Meals Per Month - YouTube
Click on the link in this post and it takes us to the video's of
' einfo' also known as Denis a scruffy individual who promotes the use of e collars .

I do hope you haven't been listening to him Fipps or following his advice . He is someone to avoid.
You are actually starting to sound like him
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Meg
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31-08-2016, 08:44 AM
Fipps I hope you won't mind if I give you a bit of advice because you are clearly following that of someone who uses outdated and barbaric methods, the afore mentioned Denis /einfo.

This is a series of video's produced by The Dogs Trust using positive reinforcement methods (as used by the APDT) and not a cruel device in sight

https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/help-ad...aining-videos/

I am sure you will find them very helpful
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Chris
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31-08-2016, 11:47 AM
Didn't follow the all the links so didn't realise one of them was Denis'

Good grief, I thought he'd disappeared years ago
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