The shock collar pushers always explain that this is a yelp of surprise.

I suspect they have told this also to Gnasher's hubby or to Gnasher herself. Psychologically, it is easy to convince owners that this is the case, for obvious reasons

I'ts not correct, as apart from it being odd, I discussed it once on a US gundog video where the dog was shocked a lot and clearly knew it would get shocked, and it still yelped. I believe there is also footage somewhere on the net (unless it's been taken off, which is often the case... wonder why... ) of someone in gundogs saying that the dog might yelp if the collar is too high.

Wys
x

.....
Here we go, found it:

http://r-plusdogtraining.info/shock.htm

You have to scroll down slightly to get the report and also comments by Cathy about the self test.

A report of my shock collar self-test:

I used a Dogtra 200 NCP Gold. It has a rheostat dial. I used the back of my arm so that the skin wouldn't be too sensitive, such as a dog's skin might not be. I could feel nothing when the dial was at zero, which makes sense as one way to turn it "off". I had to work my courage up for a long time to do this test. I considered the statement that the shock collar at low levels feels like a tickle or a tap, so I first tried about a 5 out of 100 (max). I felt nothing. I then set the dial higher in small increments.


I could feel nothing until the setting of 20. Then I felt a sharp pain, like being stuck with a hot needle. There was a definite feeling of heat. The pain was sharp, a point sensation. It did not feel pleasant, and it did not feel neutral. It felt absolutely nothing like a "tap" as in a tap on the shoulder, which would be a blunt, non-painful sensation. Importantly, at the lowest level that I could detect the stimulus, I perceived the feeling as pain and not as another kind of physical sensation.

I went higher on the rheostat and got up to 40 before I couldn't make myself go any higher. At that point, the sharpness of the feeling was greater and the sense of heat was greater. But by 40 there was also a feeling of electrical current. I got the familiar buzzing feeling that you might remember if you've ever touched a live wire.

In other words, I definitely perceived the feeling as shock, not tap or a tickle.

My skin started to tingle between the live electrode point and the ground point. Clearly a current was travelling between the two points on the shock collar, and it seemed to be travelling not only on the skin but in the muscle. I suspect it radiates out in an electromagnetic field pattern between the two points. Interestingly, I did not know which point was which on the Dogtra, as the two points appear the same, until I applied the shock to myself. In the Tritronics model, the ground point is black and the live point is colored according to the level of intensity of the shock each point type (5 in all) delivers..

I should add that this is one person's report and someone else's might differ as to levels etc, but the report does seem consistent with other info on shock collars.






Wys
x

Thanks, have just seen it (just wading through from yesterday morning )

Wys
x

A bit rich, coming from someone who is willing to inflict pain on their much loved pet

My thoughts exactly.

Aha! With intelligence comes CHOICE though!! Ben's father CHOSE not to come unless it suited him. Ben is not quite that bad, or rather was not quite that bad, but nonethless, genes will out! An obedient dog is not necessarily an intelligent dog




So you are saying here that Hal was worse than Ben? So why have you decided to zap a poor abused dog and did not zap Hal? Or did poor Hal get zapped as well but you did not want to mention that before

Another experience with a different type of collar, which still refutes the view that they are not painful:

Trainer and Husband Try Out Shock Collar

Hi, I am Angelica Steinker. Dog trainer and agility obsessed.

I thought I would tell this story: I bought an old shock collar from a client who used it to "fix" her dog aggressive dog. It did not "work." So we traded because I really wanted to shock myself to see how much it hurts and so on. The shock collar is an expensive model. I forgot the brand. Anyway, I put it on one and shocked myself. Mild discomfort. Nothing I would be willing to subject my dog to but nothing horrible. On two it hurt so much I wimped out from turning it up any higher. It goes to 9.

]After the level two shock my arm continued to twitch even though the shock was no longer turned on. That was interesting and made me wonder about the "correction" being timed properly.

Next my husband shocked himself. My husband is a "normal" person he loves the dogs but is not obsessed. He does not know much about dog training and he never works our dogs. On level one he felt almost nothing. Two was mildly uncomfortable on three he said, "people are sick as hell."

Angelica Steinker

Courteous Canine, Inc. Dog School

Lutz, FL

Angelica is a very well known dog trainer in the US.

Wys
x

how on earth could anyone subject animal to that!

Gnasher is well aware of all these details about e collars, she has taken part in previous threads on the subject including one she started herself .
Sadly some people choose to hear only that which they wish to hear.

Gnasher reading back through the thread I am struck by how many of your posts are actually about Ben and how many are 'me' posts about yourself. Even the title of the thread reflects this.

..and there we have it, I think the use of the e collar on Ben is more about someone who likes to be different from everyone else trying to prove a point than about teaching Ben recall.

The reports of people trying ecollars for themselves are really interesting in that if it hurts them, they clearly are far more sympathetic to the dog that is exposed to the ecollar.

But this isn't the whole story ~ there can be such huge variations in the perception of pain, between individual humans or dogs, or any other animal. And the perception of the pain within that individual person or animal can also vary enormously depending on the context within which it is inflicted, the internal physiological state, whether the pain is expected or comes as a complete surprise, on early learning experiences and on the level of sensitisation of the neural pain pathways.

So IMO the level of pain that someone may think they are inflicting when they choose to use an ecollar is completely irrelevant. Because the simple answer is we just don't know. We don't know that the level of pain that one dog experiences is the same as another dog. We don't know if one person's perception of pain is the same as another's. We don't know if the 1st time a dog is shocked it feels the same as the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc time it is shocked. So the level or setting of the ecollar is also completely irrelevant.

The only way we can guess at the level of pain the dog feels is by looking at the dog's behaviour. And there is no doubt that that this is completely subjective ~ it depends on a huge amount of knowledge, observation, skill & experience & not just about dogs in general, but about that individual dog in particular. And even then, it is still nothing more than an educated guess.

IMO this should be reason enough to never even contemplate the possibility of using an ecollar. Just the thought that it might hurt should be enough to stop any dog lover from using an ecollar.

But even if those reasons don't stop someone from using an ecollar, then the unemotional hard scientific principles of learning theory should be enough to make most people think twice before using pain to train a dog. It is difficult to use harsh positive punishment to stop a dog doing a behaviour that it is highly motivated to perform unless:

the punishment is severe enough,
the punishment fits the "crime",
the punishment happens every time the "crime" is committed,
the punishment happens immediately the "crime" is committed.

And even if you get all that right, there is still a huge risk of emotional fallout & consequences for a dog that is subjected to fear & pain to change it's behaviour.

Inevitably dogs, people, & all other animals experience harsh punishment at some point in their lives ~ it can't be helped, but for dog owners to actually choose to inflict pain to teach a dog what to do or what not to do, IMO is just cruel & short-sighted.