But SE WAS alpha ... it's not a claim, he actually was, went away to the States I believe, came back and rather naturally discovered that he could not just pick up where he left off !

Why would people believe their wolfdogs are pure wolves, when they're not? I would never claim Hal was a pure wolf, he was not a pure wolf either in breeding, looks or behaviour, although nonetheless was very wolfy in behaviour.

Yes it does Ben. IMO a good pack leader would not leave their dog to go on holiday. Had I left Hal for instance whilst I swanned off abroad for a couple of weeks (had it been possible, which it wouldn't have been because he was uncontrollable by anyone else) he would have been devastated by such a thing. It was bad enough when he had to go into the vet for an overnight or longer stay. He would totally ignore us, and/or grumble and growl at us for days afterwards. We just ignored his behaviour and allowed him to "come back to us" in his own time.

In answer to your last question, Ben, I am not sure as I don't recall SE's initial group of males. Where did he get them from, do you know? Were they from a domesticated pack, eg Longleat or Woburn, or were they taken from the wild? Either way he would have had to take them off the mother at a very young age, although his wolves are not of course treated as pets, living in a house, taken for walks and to the local pub ! But this is borne out by the Anglian Wolf Trust as well as every expert in such matters ... wolf cubs must be taken off the mother by 3 weeks latest for any chance of domestication.

Gnasher, do you mean that you could never leave your dog ever? Not even to go shopping or visit relatives or friends?
Was this only Hal or is your current dog like this too?

I am truely not trying to get at you when I say this but how on earth do you live like that?
I honestly can't imagine having to cater my daily moves for my dog. She's a part of my family and comes most places with me but it's really important she learns to be alone at times too for her own good.
If it's a characteristic of a highish % of wolf in your dog then it kinda seems wrong to have them as pets if they get so distressed at being left. It just seems odd to me to breed dogs who are pre-programmed almost to suffer with SA. What's the point?

“…if it’s how you want to live with your dog I have news that is going to disappoint a lot of people who have striven to reach Alpha status – it all means diddly squat to your dog.” -- John Fisher

hmm...I came across this american trainer talking about the Wolf pack model while looking at using prey drives (which seems to be how he trains) and wanted to share this quote - I think it sums up how the `Observation` of wolves seems to have been highly subjective up to now, with observers interpreting behaviours according to their own pre-formed theory.

I think one of the most unfortunate result of the alpha theory was the creation of a certain mindset in dog trainers, which has resulted in some pretty horrific training advice. For example, "How hard should you hit your dog?" ask the Monks of New Skete in the original edition of How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend. Their answer? "If she doesn't yelp in pain, you haven't hit her hard enough." They also recommend throwing your dog on her back and yelling "No!" in her face to correct bad behavior. This is known as the "alpha roll" and is supposedly what dominant wolves do to enforce their authority. (The monks have since backed down on this technique, calling it dangerous to the handler, though still ignoring the fact that it's just plain mean to the dog!) It turns out that wolves only engage in such conflicts with members of rival packs, not with their own pack members.

In The Intelligence of Dogs, Stanley Coren gave us a kinder, gentler version of this exercise, asserting: "You should deliberately manipulate and restrain your dog on a regular basis, placing it in a position that, for wild canids, signifies submission to the authority of a dominant member of the pack." He goes on to suggest periodically forcing your dog onto her back while lifting one of her legs in the air. According to Coren, this shows the dog that you're alpha, and is supposed to create a better relationship between you.

Around the same time that I read Coren's advice, I saw a documentary about wolves on TV. At one point in the film a papa wolf led his pups out of the den, began to play with them, and then rolled over on his back, supposedly "signifying submission" to them. He then encouraged them to jump on his stomach and chest and even allowed them to nip at his ears and nose. This was enormously fun to watch because it put both papa and progeny in a happy, joyous emotional state.

So, who's right, here? Stanley Coren and those brutal, sadistic monks, or an actual papa wolf? (Kelly)

hmm...I came across this american trainer talking about the Wolf pack model while looking at using prey drives (which seems to be how he trains) and wanted to share this quote - I think it sums up how the `Observation` of wolves seems to have been highly subjective up to now, with observers interpreting behaviours according to their own pre-formed theory.

I think one of the most unfortunate result of the alpha theory was the creation of a certain mindset in dog trainers, which has resulted in some pretty horrific training advice. For example, "How hard should you hit your dog?" ask the Monks of New Skete in the original edition of How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend. Their answer? "If she doesn't yelp in pain, you haven't hit her hard enough." They also recommend throwing your dog on her back and yelling "No!" in her face to correct bad behavior. This is known as the "alpha roll" and is supposedly what dominant wolves do to enforce their authority. (The monks have since backed down on this technique, calling it dangerous to the handler, though still ignoring the fact that it's just plain mean to the dog!) It turns out that wolves only engage in such conflicts with members of rival packs, not with their own pack members.

In The Intelligence of Dogs, Stanley Coren gave us a kinder, gentler version of this exercise, asserting: "You should deliberately manipulate and restrain your dog on a regular basis, placing it in a position that, for wild canids, signifies submission to the authority of a dominant member of the pack." He goes on to suggest periodically forcing your dog onto her back while lifting one of her legs in the air. According to Coren, this shows the dog that you're alpha, and is supposed to create a better relationship between you.

Around the same time that I read Coren's advice, I saw a documentary about wolves on TV. At one point in the film a papa wolf led his pups out of the den, began to play with them, and then rolled over on his back, supposedly "signifying submission" to them. He then encouraged them to jump on his stomach and chest and even allowed them to nip at his ears and nose. This was enormously fun to watch because it put both papa and progeny in a happy, joyous emotional state.

So, who's right, here? Stanley Coren and those brutal, sadistic monks, or an actual papa wolf? (Kelly)

He did say he was Alpha before he went away

He was also the one saying he would no longer be alpha before he came back - that was not him observing the interactions of the wolves that was him making a decision on how they would act before he even saw them

- BTW does that mean that alpha people cant go on holiday without their dogs cos they then loose the alpha status??

...Around the same time that I read Coren's advice, I saw a documentary about wolves on TV. At one point in the film a papa wolf led his pups out of the den, began to play with them, and then rolled over on his back, supposedly "signifying submission" to them. He then encouraged them to jump on his stomach and chest and even allowed them to nip at his ears and nose. This was enormously fun to watch because it put both papa and progeny in a happy, joyous emotional state.

So, who's right, here? Stanley Coren and those brutal, sadistic monks, or an actual papa wolf? (Kelly)[/I]