I don't have to do any original research... that's up to the quack making assertions. I'm going by what has been observed by Mech and echoed by other researchers - in peer reviewed journals. Because Ellis doesn't publish research he is free to make up anything he feels without having to demonstrate that it is true.

What is truly arrogant is to have this individual make claims that he can't back up and then expect them to be taken as fact. As I wrote, if this was true it would be fairly easy to demonstrate. In science conclusions have to follow data, this guy has no data and goes straight to the conclusion because it fits his philosophy.

She is at the Bridge, she passed on Feb 28th 1999 but she is with me in my heart and soul every moment of every day and always will be

Thank you

[ can we get back to being at war now please, I`m not used to us being this pleasant ]

O God Patch, I HAVE put my feet firmly in it ! I knew she was very elderly and had passed away ... I think you said she was 19 and a half, but I forgot that in the confusion of having to be nice to you !!

And a very pleasant experience it is too ! We can be at war, as we for sure hold some very opposing views, but that does not mean to say we can't respect each other at the same time !

I am really off to bed now, but will speak to you all tomorrow !

Bless you LS, I didn't like to mention it

Thanks for saying that; it's very easy to miss posts on busy threads !

Wys
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The way I see it Gnasher is just that as with all things scientific, the scientists themselves have moved on and done more learning - nothing stays still forever esp. knowledge

He does explain why he altered his mind and it rang very true with me. I can't see there would really be any motive as it's always harder to say "I have altered my earlier viewpoint" than to stick with it, I'd imagine

Wys
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I wasn't going to say this at this stage until after I had followed up the links, but I was talking to OH yesterday about David Mech in particular as we were walking round the woods.

I believe I am right in saying that he is American, or at least lives there. If he is not, or does not live in America, then the next bit is irrelevant ! As you may know, OH is not just a boring old fart of 60, he is, or was I should say, a bit of an academic, a medical scientist. He has a degree in Zoology, Biochemistry and Physiology, specialising in Mammalian Physiology, and started off his career with a job offer from Sir Peter Scott no less. However, he had an accident (I think it was a motorbike accident) and for some reason I forget, this prevented him from being able to take up the post. He ended up working in the local hospital's Biochem Lab, analysing amongst other things stool samples (his says his one claim to fame is that he had to analyse the then Archbishop of Canterbury's poo following an outbreak of food poisoning, and it smelt just the same as us lesser mortal's poo !) I digress.

He ended up working in the field of medical diagnostics, specialising in haematology and serology, and became involved in research, to cut a very long story short. He made a very racist remark about American scientific research, and how it tended to be viewed with some scepticism in this country because of the source of all evil ... money ! The amount of money poured into research is much much greater in the States than it is here, and so therefore is the pressure to come up with the "right" answer. Now, I am not at all in any way saying that David Mech did his extraordinary volte face because of such pressures, but OH has pointed out to me how could he have got it so wrong first time around? If he such a good scientist, then how come he missed whatever observations he missed first time around (I haven't read any of the links yet, so I am working blind here)? Could it be that his volte face had anything to do with, say, a grant being withdrawn by the pro-hunting lobby? This is mere speculation of course, and I wasn't going to mention this until after I had done my reading, but it seemed pertinent, Wys, following your posting.

Promethean : please don't take this as an attack on your fellow countrymen and women ! I have many American friends both here and across the Pond, and I loves youse guys !! I am merely stating what OH said was how american research tended to be regarded in this country. It could well be that we have the case of the Little Green Eyed Monster rearing his jealous little head here, because scientists and researchers in this country are so under-valued and under-paid, earning a fraction of their equivalents across the Pond !

There is no way

I think you need to read about him and what he says himself (Mech I mean, not your hubby ) but he didn't get it wrong at first - he simply did what all scientists do in the absense of other info, which is to base work around what is known. Schenkel's work on captive wolves was what was mostly known about at the time, hence Mech started from that viewpoint. I would imagine he actually spent many years realising, hypothesising etc that the Schenkel info was in fact not correct, but of course he had to come up with real information with probably data etc which can be tricky and take years to collect.

I think he has an email address and he has a website, so you can always ask him but I doubt it very much, I am not sure where hs funds come from but he comes across to me (there is a video of him on the net) as a trustworthy person with integrity. Someone who has spent so much of their life studying would be more concerned about truth, real information etc. I have a good nose for fakes and I am sure he's not one .

Wys
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Sorry Gnasher but that just makes no sense at all

Mech and other people like him did some research and formed some conclusions
They have done more research, the results of which did not fit their conclusions - they actually showed their theories to be flawed
As they were good scientists and the data did not fit the beliefs they held, and they were satisfied that their work was correct then the only result they could draw from that was that the origonal conclusions were wrong based on insufficient evidence

To say that he did the totaly about turn just because of money is to say that he made up all his work, as did all the other people all over the globe who were also comming to the same conclusions - that is a bit of a stretch to say the least
He was a big enough man to come out and say his inital conclusions had been wrong

Should we say the earth is flat? or that evolution dosent exist?? all these things were not total about turns just because of money, they were the results of observation and experimentation - and it takes a lot of guts to stand against the long held beliefs of the time and say 'no I was wrong, this is why I was wrong'

Mech could have made plenty of money holdng onto his beliefs - there are plenty on TV just now who are making pots of cash stating long held views and totaly ignoring the latest findings of their peers

I am also a trained scientist and TBH if I was working on something ground breaking and exciting I would do it in my spare time for free if there was no funding for it - to break boundries and further knowladge, put my name in history, that would be far more important than grants and funding!

Fair do's, the guy sounds like a good egg, but I most certainly will email him if I don't agree with his research and if I thought there was any question of his integrity being in doubt, I would put my thoughts to him ! I too have a 6th sense about such things, and OH will suss him out if this is the case, he would be able to see through any bull ! I'm not pre-judging him at all (Mech, not OH !! ), just going to keep an open mind !

Thanks for that info, Wys.