OP (Gnasher) Is there any point to this thread remaining open? Would you rather it closed?

Everyone else - same question, is there anything positive that can come out of this thread now?

First you acknowledged the e collar DOES HURT - now you state it does not.

First you said there are trigger happy farmers nearby - then you denied that and said there were not, now suddenly there are again...


If you had actually had the integrity to try the damn e collar on yourself, I probably would have had a bit of respect for you.

As it is, you didn't even have the decency to try it properly. Why not - maybe because deep down you know it would hurt...?

Azz, can I answer when I have waded through all the latest posts?

I take a huge issue with that.
It is such an unfair comment to make.

You are on here stating that you feel you training method has worked for an extreme case - from what you have told me I disagree - I do not feel Ben is an extreme case at all - but that aside -

While you continue to defend your chosen method - you will happily knock others who choose to be 100% responsible by allowing their dogs free running in a controlled way.

I ask again - what is so wrong with allowing a dog 50ft of trailing lead? Thus making 100% sure that the dog is under control but being able to behave like a dog.

I agree with Tassle and all those who would like to see the thread closed. As far as I can see it serves no useful purpose.
Help and advice was not not requested here and was clearly not wanted. In fact I have misgivings about the real reason the thread was started at all.

Sorry, I could not take seriously any 'updates' from someone who has previously admitted on a number of occasions (including in this thread) to stretching the truth and a person who clearly has so little understanding of dogs that any behaviour Ben displays could be misinterpreted or tailored to suit the TSs original pronouncements anyway.

I am saddened and sickened that anyone can take on an abused dog and treat it with such a lack of consideration.

Apologies if my being candid upsets anyone but Admin did ask for opinions. I just wish if people can't be bothered to take the time and trouble to understand and make allowances for the dogs they accept into their 'care' they would leave them alone.

hmm well inital thought was gnasher has been given some amazing advice and offers of help
People have explained why they are so concerned
but she really isnt listning or answering anyones questions really
BUT she is going to keep on about her great recal (until it suddenly fails) and new people might stumble on a thread and not have all the facts and think she has a great methods and then try it
Hopefully they would be able to read here why we feel this is not a fix but a dangerous temp fix



I actually find the slendertone very sore on higher settings - it feels like it is burning my skin (it prob is)
and electric fences are very painful to me - bad enought with my hand there where I can move it away and control it - but round my neck where I have no idea why its happening and cant stop it

as for 'yelped in surprise' purlease!! yes he was surprised he got hurt - life is full of surprises and my dogs have never yelped when surprised, they yelp when something hurts them



Yup I would say most of us manage our dogs based on how we know them and the situations
Ben is better offlead than Mia - so there are places I can let him off before I let her off
But will his recal ever be enough that I would trust him offlead beside a busy road - nope I could never say 100% that a cat running out infront of him his recal would be THAT good
I will ALWAYS condem them to be onlead in places where there is danger
and find SAFE places to let them offlead

I don't remember the jelly!! I used mine back in the late 70's - you had to dampen these round plastic discs and strap them to your body via velcro straps. Even on a high setting, I cannot say they hurt, it was just uncomfortable because your stomach muscles contracted so much that it felt like a mild punch in the stomach. The e collar feels like a very low setting of the Slendertone.

From my point of view, I am trying to present the picture that e collars are not:

1. Painful (having used it now on myself).
2. In extreme situations, with extreme cases, definitely have a use.

Personal attacks aside, your arguments just don't make sense.



Why should it matter who is using it? You are giving OH permission to use it, whether it's you physically pressing that button or your OH, you're allowing it, and you should know what it feels like. However, you are a human, Ben is a dog, you have no way of feeling the same level of pain as him



I highly doubt the thickness of his fur makes a difference. Hair is a poor conductor of electricity, the electricity (yes, it is electricity, whether it's "static" or not) passes through the skin, so yet another of your arguments that don't make sense. Dogs have thinner skin than us - it's why minor scrapes and nicks tend to tear into a lot bigger wounds than you'd expect. I don't think we'll ever fully know how much an e-collar hurts a dog because we cannot ask them, but the dog yelped - that is an "ouch"! You cannot say it didn't hurt him, you go on to confirm that the dog experienced pain in your next bit of writing.

It makes EVERY DIFFERENCE!! The contact points MUST be closely in contact with the skin - the more hair, the less contact. Therefore, because I do not have hairy arms, the fact that I experienced no pain whatsoever, means that neither would Ben have done - muscle spasm yes, which to a dog I would think would be alarming and surprising because they do not understand what was happening - hence the yelp of surprise, NOT pain!



Would you physically beat your dog for doing something wrong? Surely the momentary pain is justified by the outcome?

You just do not understand static electricity. The "punch" that a high level of nick from an e collar gives you results in a split second contraction of the muscles - following that contraction, there is no further pain. When you beat someone, prick him with a needle, give him a wasp or bee sting, the pain continues, or can even INCREASE. With static electricity, that is just not the case. The "pain", and that is really not the right word, only lasts for as long as the static electricity is applied


Which you could've had by perservering with positive training, by introducing some consistancy into Ben's life and putting a bit more effort in than you've decided to.



This argument, yet again, makes no sense. If Ben was so intelligent that he could differentiate this in an aroused prey drive/chasing state, why can you just not train him to understand your rule of not going into sheep fields? Of not going out of sight? You have a dog that you argue is very trainable, to the extent of differentiating between someone's pet/livestock and a wild animal, yet claim you cannot teach a recall, it doesn't add up.

You clearly have no understanding of northern-typed breeds

I've used a citronella spray collar before and since discovering forums like Dogsey, I really regret it. I wish I'd had a resource like this back then and had people to advise me of fairer ways to deal with the issue. I certainly know now that dealing with the issue, rather than the symptom, would've worked a whole lot more effectively - as it was, the dog learnt how to empty the collar with a quick succession of barks and then the problem behaviour continued. Dealing with why she was barking would've been a lot more effective. I just think it's a shame that you have these resources and chose to go for the easier option. I have yet to see good justification for using the e-collar other than it being a quick fix in a regime that consists of conflicting messages and a lack of consistancy.