Dr Mech on Youtube - 'Alpha' Wolf?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU

Apologies - I have just gone back through the thread and realised that Wys had already posted a link to this article - and some other excellent links too (sorry Wys):

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php...55#post1676955

wolfdogowner

That's not true. It is actually difficult to determine the identity of the breeding male - your alpha. So much so that Mech writes in his book "The Wolf" that when he studied the wolves of Isle Royal he had a difficult time determining the hierarchy. Again, the facts refute the claims you, Ellis and others make.

The point is that not only is Shaun Ellis wrong, he is making these unsubstantiated claims. All he would have to do to prove his ideas is track a biochemical marker, tie it to "alphaness" and show that there is a strong correlation between the two that in a way that eliminates environmental influences.... HE CAN"T.

Second point is that thanks if we understand Hardy-Weinberg and genetic drift and as you say only alphas get to mate then we would see a shift in as the frequency of Shyness increase in the population thanks to the successful breeding of alpha wolves. Even if I knew nothing about wolves, a mathematical modeling of gene frequency in a population would lay this claim to waste.

And yes, where there are no available mating partners, all animals resort to inbreeding. This in not news nor is it relevant.

Well I think this sounds incredibly arrogant, or perhaps you have done some original research yourself?

As I recall, 'The Wolf' was Mechs first book that he wrote as a student, interesting at the time; even he admits how outdated it is. Yes he had a lot of problems on the Isle Royal project and he learnt a lot more later on. He is also only one of many, many people who have published since. I have never said that only alphas breed, but modern genetic testing seems to have indicated that this is indeed the norm: these tests were done on radio collared individuals from various related packs in Canada that were free from some of the many constraints and inbreeding problems of Isle Royale.

I don't know what Shaun Ellis can or cannot do in relation to biochemical markers and only have words on this thread to say he ever said any of it. However as it appears no one has tested this theory then it sounds equally arrrogant to dismiss its posibility?

As for shyness, I merely used it as an example of an inherited (nature over nurture) trait or perhaps you think all animals are programmed the same from the factory and that genetics has nothing to do with behaviour at all?

ahhh thought i had read something like that before I loose track sometimes
But a good link well worth repeating

I like the analogy !! I love the wild boar and the tame sow, being a huge piggy fan !!

Wolves are AMAZING snoggers aren't they !! SE says they are "tasting" to see what your diet is, and therefore what your rank is. I am a carnivore through and through, my diet consisting mainly of meat, a huge amount of salad, some fruit and probably too much alcohol ! One assumes I came up to muster as whenever I go back I am welcomed back to the bosom as it were !

Ooo aarrr Jackbox !! We be strange folk hereabout in these parts !! We only like Locals with Precious Things !!

Joking apart, I was actually the subject of much mirth and some derision last night, as if what I was asking showed how stupid and ignorant I was. I felt a right pranny.

So your experience is that most bitches do not regurgitate, my experience is exactly the opposite. Very strange, but we will just have to accept its one of those things !

I wish I could remember in detail what he said Wys, because it was so extraordinary and something I had never ever heard said before. It might have been something he learned from the Nez Perce when he was living with them. I am sure it was something to do with the neck of the womb, not the actual positioning of the wolves in relation to each other. Cry-wolf's internet is still down, so therefore Shaun is still off line, but as soon as Charlie is up and running again, be rest assured I shall ask him to remind me. I know it was very interesting and made sense.

No, I am absolutely not arguing with that Wys. I totally agree that wolves 100% will regurgitate, and that the percentage in dogs will be much less. I just am struggling to understand why some of us have never seen it happen, whereas some of us have, and I was laughed under scorn in the pub last night, as if I was asking something that was so completely obvious ! Never mind, it's really off topic, and we will just leave it that 100% of wolves do, and probably around 30% of dogs do.

Male dogs will regurgitate too, Promethean, if they have exposure to their pups, which is I accept pretty rare. I have personally seen this happen, although it has to be said the breed in question was Czech Wolfdog.