No, I think Mishflynn answered you

Why was the dog struggling? because it was fearful. Why do that to a dog? I'd be ashamed if a dog struggled becuase I'd made it fearful of me.

Mishflynn mentioned it was easy to teach a dog to lie down, CM wanted to force the dog because he wanted submission, but if you can teach a dog to lie down anyway, you have that control ... so why doesn't he choose that better, calmer, way?

Another person who can see what is really there - thankyou!


Well said.

At the end of the program over the credits-that's when I switch the sound back on

Absolutely right Patch, he uses very aggressive body posture & force, then the dogs close down.

I ask myself this question, if he is happy to use force in his programs, what does he do off screen ??? IMHO if people are happy to mistreat their dogs in public the treatment is far worse behind closed doors.

He never praises the dogs whilst they are doing as he wants-leaving the dogs with no idea if what they are doing will result in more "treatment"

The illusion collar & the slip lead are used to keep control using pressure oin the most sensitive part of the dog(top of the neck under the ears)The lead is always tight up under the ears even though the rest of the lead is slack, this means the dog can be punished with a slight tug. This is one of the reasons some show(conformation mainly) handlers use it(especially in nervous "English"type GSDs-a method used in the ring by a well known UK dog behaviourist)

Having "rehabilitated"many many rescue GSDs over the years, I never had to resort to punishing the dogs & I have no doubt that CM would have failed to restore the dogs to a happy well adjusted pet, they would be submissive, but would have absolutely no quality of life

Skyspirit
1st have you had any experience of collies?? I had also noticed a trend with the types of dogs people own and whether they are pro or con CM
But
If you check the dogs trust website you will see that if you are looking to rehome a dog and think you want a collie then they have a whole extra section for you to read about how difficult collies actually are
If you go into the rescues you will see most dogs there are pit bull types and collie types (often about 9 months old)- and the most long termers are the collie types because they do worst in recue and develop the most offputting habbits
One of the most difficult dogs to deal with is a teenage collie - smart, easily bored, able to train itself if you are slightly inconsistent, and in some cases obsessive, fearfull, controlling and agressive
Sure not all - like any breed there are differences
but the ones you see on TV lovingly walking to heel, running agility or performing (with much joy) their heelwork to music routines, they are dogs who have had lots of exercise, hours of training and bonding from a owner who has happily changed their life to fit in this fabulus breed

They are a great breed and not for the faint hearted
And patch rehabilitating messed up collies is doing an amazing job

But back to the trend
I think it is a perceved thing that some dogs need a hard hand to train
sure dogs are different - I know how stubborn JRT can be having 1/2 of one - but also the other 1/2 being a 'soft' collie (and that does not mean easy to train) that if I CM'ed him then my trust would be broken with him and he would be a shadow of the dog I have now
How can I say that?? if at any time Ben feels that I am unhappy with him - like the one time I found him rolling in horse poo and I took his coller to move him away - no bad energy just moving him - he was so scared that he had done something wrong that he was cringing and shaking for about 1 hour
the ONLY way it is possible to train my guy is the positive way
He shuts down much faster than any other dog I have met

I would say I would love to see CM or one of his fans try and work with my dog - but no because if I saw anyone deliberatly causing my dog to be scared or shut down I would alpha roll their a$$
and that is not being over soft with my dog

I do not coddle him when he is scared - that would make him more scared - I let him see that I am fine with the thing that is scaring him
except for the time when a dog went for him - I got rid of the dog and then went to my boy - dont care if you think its wrong but it was a v justafied scared so I hugged him

dont think any of us pro cm have said his way is the only way it just that we like his way, and does not mean any of the other way are not any good

Having read all of this thread (over a period of weeks) nothing has changed my original opinion to steer well clear of CM .

CM first came to my attention on Dogsey some time ago when Jenny posted the video clip below featuring CM and Emily a supposedly 'dog aggressive dog', CM advocated the use of the alpha roll to 'release this dogs aggression'.

I watched the video and saw what to me appeared to be a friendly/exuberant/excitable/untrained PBT which had not been sufficiently socialized with other dogs, I did not see a dog aggressive dog. Look at the dog's body language, the facial expression/set of the tail/the sounds it is making, none of them suggest aggression to me. Note how the owner contributes to the problem with the use of his 'excited voice' instead of a calm low pitched voice.

It may be that CM used this particular dog even though it wasn't as he suggested 'dog aggressive' just to illustrate a point when making the video, or perhaps he is unable to observe a dog and read its body language, either way I find the video misleading and unhelpful to anyone looking for help to deal with a dog aggressive dog.

Had the dog really been dog aggressive I can't see how swinging it around on a lead then rolling it over could possibly help with dog aggression, these actions could make some dogs human aggressive too.

There is a brief warning lasting a couple of seconds for people not to follow this technique themselves . If any member of the public watched this video and tried the technique on the wrong dog they could be very badly bitten


http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=a79c1025-1fdb-44f2-9d3a-9307dc4021bf&f

She was extremely weak but was scared witless herself. If you have a 'hangman's' fracture of the cervical spine a push from a pomeranian or even a sneeze could leave you permanently paralysed from neck down...all that overlay made her an even more worse handler, until shown an effective way of handling it. Why are we continuing to press the point about the hopelessness of some handlers? We all know that there are millions of lousy handlers out there.

When you have experienced a series of different dogs with different breed traits and dispositions over many years it is much easier to make a judgement call on what intervention is required to hep solve problematic behaviours. I think most of us agree that he dealt with this situation appropriately and hopefully improved the relationship for the dog and the owners.

I can get my dog to submit just by walking towards him if he's doing something naughty and that's the ultimate aim of the alpha roll - to get the dog to stop unwanted behaviour with just a look. At first the dog won't submit because it believes it is the 'dominant' one in the relationship.

I just wanted to give an example to Mishflynn of how I use CM techniques as she asked for them last night I think
Sometimes when Bryan hears a dog barking outside he'll go to our front door and bark. So I get between him and the door in a calm manner and make him walk away from the door - without any physical contact by me, maybe with a noise if I need to. Once he has backed away from the door he stops barking and goes back to lie down.

He used to always go to the door to bark when he heard a dog barking outside. Since I started using this technique he does it maybe 50% of the time and he stops as soon as I get up now. It's a bit of a slow process but it's working. This may not be an original CM technique, I don't know, but that's who I learnt it from.

I agree with Skyespirit that CM doesn't rehab in an emotional way and I believe that some people may react to him in an emotional way (that's not directed at anyone, I just realisethat his techniques may illicit that response from other humans). I am in no way a cruel person, I have a DT dog and I'm a doggy foster carer. I support Dog's Trust and abhor people who abuse animals.

CM believes that teaching commands to a dog that isn't balanced in the first place is pointless because there is still the threat of unpredictable or aggressive behaviour. Once the dog is balanced then it's time to teach commands.

On the other hand, if the dog is taught commands from being a puppy then it will have that bond with it's owner and will be a good all round balanced dog. But those of us with rescues or dominant type dogs have to work that extra bit hard because there are psychological issues to work on.

Like Skyespirit said, it's hard for people who have naturally submissive and command oriented dogs (such as collies just as an example) to see the need for CM techniques.

I can also relate to the agoraphobia. The only way to overcome it is to put yourself in a situation where the panic comes on and then to battle the panic. If you just avoid the fear you become a total recluse and never go out. In the same way, problem/dominant dogs need to be confronted and shown that they don't need to act in that way