[QUOTE=JoedeeUK;1533640]I didn't "find"my vet I have been with the same practice for the whole time I have owned dogs i.e. 50 years, I haven't had to search for a vet who agrees with me, the practice as always done neutering after puberty(except for medical reasons obviously). My vet asn't been influenced wit prepuberty neutering which has come from the USA.

I do not blindly accept anything that vets tell me(especially regarding vaccinations)& the practice I use accept this. I don't try to get people not to vaccinate their dogs/cats, but I do point out both sides of the vaccinations.

As too a bitch missing her"fun"for three weeks & being walked on a lead-you are anthromorphizing dogs-my bitches in season were not walked off my property & never left alone with a male dog at anytime. They were never "depressed"by not being able to break out & get mated & have puppies nor did they become"upset"because they were not exercised in public-dogs do not have the human feelings you attribute to them. The truth is you would miss being able to allow your dog/bitch to run free 365 days a year & of course you don't have to be concerned about seasons. You, like so many dog owners & vets etc, are using neutering as a means of contraception & in many cases as a replacement for responsible dog ownership

sorry i really have to disagree with you here i have a 7 month puppy in her first season at the moment, she has not stopped whimpering since starting, in the house and also when i am out walking she knows when in a field she normally gets a run so believe me she is definately gutted to be on a lead, so in 3 months i will be having her speyed

Red collar

I reread your post up the thread a bit! posted ages ago but thought It worth flagging up a few points


1.My decision-making was not entirely based on statistics. I'm lucky to have good friends who know more about dogs than I ever will, including behaviourists with a lifetime's hands-on knowledge who were able to discuss behavioural issues as well as physical health. They have reported behavioural problems of dogs who were neutered before maturity being trapped in permanent puppyhood with a puppy mentality in an adult body causing behavioural problems in their relationship to other dogs - hence the need for behavioural input. This sort of impression is hard to pin down with statistics, but nevertheless reflects personal experience
This is actually very simple to do a basic stats test on. Compile numbers of dogs with problems compare those who are neutered with those who are not, check for confounding factors. run a T-test and there you are. The fact that behaviourists haven't done it (or some don't know that it has been done) means that the field is prone to speculation without substance not that the hypothesis that neutering leads to behavioural problems can't be tested.

2. Of these figures around 4% of cases are fatal, i.e. approximately 1 entire bitch in 100 for a lifetime risk. However mortality associated with anaesthesia has been recorded at 0.43% in dogs. http://www.jaaha.org/cgi/content/abstract/35/1/13
This 0.43% figure may be misleading as it is from the data at a university teaching hospital for perianasthetic deaths. teaching hospitals are morelikely to have higher death rates for challenging/sick cases. I can't access the whole paper but the important figure is deaths in healthy young animals undergoing abominal surgery. I can't find that data tonight.


3. Mammary adenocarcinoma may be more visible than pyo but metastases may occur prior to appropriate surgical intervention.

Am sure I need to look at those papers more thoroughly

So your calling me irresponsible basically? Yes i have 2 entire bitches, they will not be spayed unless for medical reasons that could cause a life or death scenario. Next year i am getting a male puppy, he will not be castrated. When the bitches are in heat they will be seperated from the dog, either by going into boarding kennels or in the kennel in my garden.

The irresponsible people are those who you described, they don't give a damn who their dogs mate with or when. Those are the people that put puppies in rescue, along with puppy farmers and stray dogs. I have never had an accidental litter, once two of my mums dogs mated when neither of us were home and my sister was in charge, the bitch had the injection to stop the pregnancy, and never has a male dog jumped in our garden at any time over the years and the bitches get taken out for exercise either very early in the morning or late at night when hardly anyone walks their dogs.

This world is not ideal i know, but i don't see why dogs have to be mutilised to fit in. It's not as difficult as most say to stop an entire bitch getting pregnant or a dog from straying.

I can't see where I said you personally was irresponsible as I can't see you live in my neighbourhood, which if you read my post was what I was talking about.
The majority on here are very responsible and interested in thier dogs welfare and wellbeing which is why they come here with like minded people.
Many years ago I didn't nueter or spay either as I showed my dogs, and lived in a quieter area and had no problems.
Unfortunatly there are other places like where I live now, where the irresponsible out weigh those that are responsible.
I also don't like being called lazy because I do the best for my dogs where we live so I don't think you should be tarring everyone with the same brush, and i am sure others have taken offence at that sweeping genralisation (sp) too.

The only presentation on the behavioural issues that I'm aware of is this one

http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposiu...ession%20I.pdf

in particular the section by Duffy and Serpell who used data from 7,500 C-BARQ questionnaires. http://w3.vet.upenn.edu/cbarq/

A sample of the questions is given in the presentation.

I think someone further up the thread mentioned the article in Dogs Monthly by vet Mark Elliott. I can't quote for copyright reasons - but paraphrasing, he states that the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation reported significantly more behavioural problems in neutered dogs and bitches. (no references given, and the article is not available online although I believe it may eventually appear on Dogs Monthly website )

Mark Elliott's article also puts forward the theory which my behaviourist friends support, i.e. that confusion over the dog's status in dog society (powerful adult dog sans adult hormones) may give rise to behavioural issues.

Of course, one person's behavioural problem may be another person's "aww, how sweeet" - e.g. increased attachment and attention seeking.

it would be interesting to have the figures for deaths in (otherwise) healthy animals.

do you mean that the cancer may migrate via matastases into other organs before it becomes apparent by changes in the mammary tissue? Just making sure that's what you mean?

Interesting PDF article — will look at it in a lot more detail. However I am always hesitant to draw significant conclusions from questionnaires — too prone to observer influences.

Metastases may occur at any point from tumour initiation, even before the become palpable to the owner. It all depends on the malignancy of the specific tumour. Mammary tumours show a spectrum of malignancy. Once again prevention beats cure.

Having read all this I am now confused as to what to do about Poppy. When should I get her spayed bearing in mind Ben 12months neutered.
Elaine x

The best person to talk to is your vet. Ask lots of questions.
They should be able to help you make the best choice from your options.