Why is it shock collar supporters always ask the same questions? And then give the same replies, and then so it goes on - it's always the same. I think you all frequent some kind of shock collar planet or something

I don't mean to be rude, but we've had some seemingly pleasant people on here before who have been shock supporters and all they all have an agenda - to promote shock collar use at the detriment of animal welfare.


Wys

I don't consider you rude at all, but I thought I had (repeatedly) made my intentions clear, and "promotion" is certainly not one of them. Have you had time to wade thru all of my posts? I only asked one question, and since no one has as yet bothered to answer (which I find a bit disconcerting), how can you possibly conclude my reply would be the same as that of other "supporters"??

Don't have time to search other threads, too busy replying to this one!

If there was not a trained command given prior to the shock, and the dog is merely being taught stop a behavior via an unpleasant association with same, that is punishment as I use the term. That is most definitely not the way the dollar should be used. And of course a mis-timed correction is harmful, there isn't a faster way to ruin a dog than improper use of electricity.

I bring the collar into play only after the dog has been thoroughly trained (positively!) without it, and conditioned to it's use in all commands (a must to maintain behavioral balance). From then on, it is used to motivate the dog to make good choices with regard to command response. One should rarely have to use it if the dog is conditioned properly, because he wants to obey, even in the face of extreme and sometimes life-threatening distraction, and even if obeying is counter to strong, genetically installed drive to do otherwise.

I don't believe that we are dealing with different types of animal at all, just different mindsets on training techniques.

Personal observations that have confirmed my views on why positive punishment is not required or desired in dog training include:

Seeing so many dogs trained without them to highly reliable standards

I have a feeling that's not what you are looking for. I believe you are asking for personal observations in respect of fall out from the use of positive punishment so I'll include just a few:

I've tried an e-collar on my arm along with a group of other people in the same group. Every one of us felt a different sensation from mildly distracting to painful (same setting used for each). There's no way of knowing what a dog feels when a shock is given even at lower levels.

I've known one dog personally who was put to sleep for a severe attack after the owner started using one to deter barking at the fence when people passed. Before the collar was used, the dog had never bitten.

I personally knew an owner and wannabe dog trainer who used one on her dog as it was trying to get to next door's cat through the fence and this was causing major ructions with the neighbour. The dog went out into the garden and just as it started towards the fence after the cat, the owner administered the shock. The dog ran back indoors and it took three weeks of desensitisation before the dog would take a step out into the garden even to toilet.

These are just in relation to the e-collar.

If you want examples of fall out from personal observations
of other physical aversive techniques, just say. I have so many I could write a book, unfortunately

Firstlight had you heeded my advice to search previous threads on the subject in question you would have seen a number of videos demonstrating the use of e collars posted by their proponents. These are usually people who are incapable of reading and interpreting the body language demonstrated by their dogs, the signs of fear, distress and 'shutting down' .

I won't help you find and link to such threads myself because I have no desire to contribute to promoting these devices in any way.
Those who do promote these devices almost always do so with an evangelical fervour, they will not be dissuaded from their 'message' and those of us who see these devices as cruel will not change our opinion so there is always a situation of stalemate in these kind of threads.

Brierley, BLESS YOU, these examples are exactly what I was seeking!! I have seen all of the same things in response to misuse of the collar. Please stay tuned, I have to go now but I will flesh out this response when I return.

Brierley, BLESS YOU, these examples are exactly what I was seeking!! I have seen all of the same things in response to misuse of the collar. Please stay tuned, I have to go now but I will flesh out this response when I return.