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Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
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10-01-2011, 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer 
.....
Now they are designed totally differently.
Adam
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
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10-01-2011, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Crysania
It's not a matter of "thinking." It's a matter of knowing. Electric shocks hurt. If they didn't hurt, they wouldn't be aversive. And if they weren't aversive they wouldn't work in your "training."
Saying it doesn't hurt makes your whole training concept break down. If the dog won't actively work to avoid the shock because it doesn't hurt then the training goes nowhere. Since the dogs DO learn to fear the shock and DO actively work to avoid it, it becomes pretty clear that it hurts.
Let me give two examples:
1. Every single time I go to get invoices out of a metal basket at work during the winter I get shocked. It HURTS. I now avoid the box when I can or touch my clothed elbow to something metal to absorb the shock before touching the metal box with my bare hands. Why did I learn to approach it differently? The pain from shock.
2. Because it's winter I pick up static electricity pretty easily. I forget that and sometimes reach out to pet my dog. I often scratch beneath her ears or run my hands down the sides of her face and over her ears. The other day I went to pet her and I shocked her on the side of the face. For several hours afterward she would flinch away from my hands. I had to pair it with treats and make sure I was grounded before petting her. If the shock didn't hurt (and I have many times heard people, including you I believe, say that it's "just like" static electricity which "doesn't really hurt you"), then why the avoidance of my hands?
Shocks DO hurt and if you're going to use such things to "train" then you need to face up to what they are and what you're doing. Pretending there is no pain involved in being shocked is not doing anyone any service. Lying about it is not doing anyone any service and simply makes you look BAD. Be honest about what you do Adam because right now you're simply typing out a whole slew of lies. Why would anyone want to go to a dishonest trainer no matter WHAT they use?
Do you avoid staring at bright lights?
Do you put a coat on when its cold?
If you do you have been aversive trained without pain!
Adam
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
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10-01-2011, 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by mishflynn
Because they dont have a clue.
These people CANT train a dog, obvisley, & therefore their opinions actually mean sod all
Adam
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Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,848
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10-01-2011, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Do you avoiding sitting in uncomfortable positions in the car?
Do you avoid staring at bright lights?
Do you put a coat on when its cold?
If you do you have been aversive trained without pain!
Adam
Yes, but no one is forcing me to stare at those lights until I do something "right" and then allowing me to look away. Staring at bright lights is painful and can be damaging if you do it for too long or too often.
Yes, but no one is forcing me to go outside in the cold without my coat until I do something "right" and then allowing me to put a coat on. Going outside without a coat can be painful and can be damaging or even life-threatening if you do it for too long.
Checkmate.
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Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
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10-01-2011, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Mnay people would say that the average jo with a dog opinions matter far more than someone with a specilised interest in training because the average jo needs the help.
Adam
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
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10-01-2011, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy
more expensive you mean? better marketing? pushier salesmen using underhand tactics... like telling lies about electric shocks not hurting a dog?
Before it was just one high level (way higher than any modern collar).
Adam
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
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10-01-2011, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy
this statement is off topic and doesn`t make sense.
Adam
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Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
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10-01-2011, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Do you avoiding sitting in uncomfortable positions in the car?
Do you avoid staring at bright lights?
Do you put a coat on when its cold?
If you do you have been aversive trained without pain!
Adam