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Location: Northern USA
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,847
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30-07-2009, 11:37 AM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy 
snip
I would take issue with your last statement BTW - `red zone` is a term he has invented for a dog that has been badly mis-managed then pushed beyond endurance. I would use different terms - abused, traumatised or stressed. snip
Yes, this thread does move fast. I forgot to click on ''view first unread'' and had a terrible time finding my last post.
I thank those that helped make the point of the success of those using positive methods. I certainly have seen them work well in service dog programs. The dog guide school has moved to even more positive methods since we started raising puppies for them in 1991. Not only do they train dogs, but they also must train both the puppy raisers and the working dogs' partners. Quite often neither know much about dogs when they come into the programs. In 1991, I may have known more than many dog owners, but honestly must say I didn't have a clue how little I knew like many dog owners.
The school suggests withdrawing from scary things to a distance the puppy is comfortable with and gradually moving closer to it. They also suggest going up to something the puppy is afraid of and patting it and talking to it.
Experience is great. Without it, you will never understand your training and reading. You will not be able to sort out good advice and the nonsense so common in dog advice. However, no one person can ever accumulate enough, even over a lifetime, to know much about dogs. Some of the worst advice I see comes from self taught professionals.
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Location: Glasgow, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 810
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30-07-2009, 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs
scarter
im sorry the debate got a bit sideways there but the situation i was talking about ben was doing the obsticle, if you didnt understand calming signals it would look like all was well but i could see he wasnt happy
in the situation you mentioned i just keep going
ben gets spooked by new things sometimes, if there is nothing to fear, he hasnt had a bad association with the thing in the past i let him decide to do it hiself
sometimes if its safe i just drop the lead and walk away
ben decides its more rewarding to be with me and so makes the desicion to go himself, and he is so happy and proud of himself when he has been brave and overcome something
i do that cos i know him and how he will deal in the situation
if it isn't just him being startled or spooked by an unexpected thing but an actual real fear then i deal with that in a way best suited to the situation
I'm deliberately staying out of the 'debate' and stick to the points that are relevant to my experiences!I wasn't suggesting that you did the wrong thing with your dog. Rather that it's not clear cut.
Firstly there's the matter of recognising calming signals when you see them.
Then there's figuring out WHY the dog is stressed.
Then you need to decide the best way forward taking into account your dog's 'personality' and yours.
Recognising the signals is easy once you've read a book about it.
Knowing why the dog is stressed is more complex. Carol (our agility teacher) spotted that Beanie was using calming signals because I spoke to her. Imagine a situation where I was sending my dog over a dog walk and I habitually said something like "oooh - what a clever girl - isn't it high up!" (I don't, but it's just an example). I spot the dog sniffing the ground, yawning, licking it's nose every time we approach the dog walk and assume it's afraid of the dog walk. We got carried away when we first learned about calming signals and we very often miss-diagnosed the cause of stress. This can lead to the creation of even bigger problems.
Then knowing the best way forward when you correctly identify a source of stress. In some cases it's a no brainer. My dog doesn't like me to chat to it so I stop. Other times it's not so clear cut. For example, my youngest will deliver rapid fire calming signals when he's not getting his own way. We realised that we'd taught him this behavior. We got the book and started backing off everytime we saw a calming signal. The calming signals gradually increased. It got to the stage where we were concerned that we had a seriously stressed dog. Then it dawned on us that he was simply learning to use behaviors that got the desired results.
In retrospect I think we'd have done a lot better with our boy if we hadn't tried so hard to get it right. We molly-coddled when really he needed firmness. Carol picked up on this immediately and since we put the calming signals book back on the shelf and started being very firm with him he's improved drastically.
I'm not 'against' any approach. I firmly believe that there are many ways to skin a rabbit and that anyone that thinks that there way is the only way should be given a wide berth.
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Location: hampshire, uk
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 675
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30-07-2009, 11:41 AM
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
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30-07-2009, 11:54 AM
i know sometimes you can end up in situations you cant control and you just have to manage the situation
re the difference with flooding and desensitisation
if the dog is reacting then its too much
i go by a simple rule of thumb
if mia (my fear agressive reactive dog) is happy to do tricks then we are not overdoing it
if she cannot break eye contact or she refuses or snatches treats then i am asking too much of her and i should move away a little bit so she can calm down and actually learn
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
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30-07-2009, 12:00 PM
we all make mistakes when learning with our dogs
and your boy sounds smart, which is a double edged sword
i think you worry too much about getting it all right and need to step back and enjoy your pups a bit more, not saying you dont enjoy them of course, but they are both v young, it sounds like you have done really well with them but they wont be perfect, they are young
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Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
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30-07-2009, 12:00 PM
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Location: hampshire, uk
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 675
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30-07-2009, 12:01 PM
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Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
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30-07-2009, 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker
looks like another question/point on this thread im gonna have to chalk up to 'a non reply equals a strike out'.
im chalking up a record here
I call `qualified` having taken (and passed) a minimum of a basic course in your chosen profession.
To repeat my next post
No, I don`t consider `self-taught` a qualification. Not for someone who calls themselves a professional and is charging for their services.
The reason being (to pre-empt your next query)..
a course of study challenges your own assumptions
gives you the knowledge of recognised research in your field
gives you contact with other students to debate and test your theories
hopefully makes you a member of a professional body that regulates its members
teaches you to challenge and evaluate your own practice.
The last is the most important to me.
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Location: Scottish Borders
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 13,902
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30-07-2009, 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker
What your husband did was fine.
What you did, although not ideal, is also 'relatively fine', as it is not giving your dog an opportunity to deal with the situation, but it isn't creating a long term disorder for your dog. I would have taken your husbands example.
Possibly also feed with treats as passing, assuming their was time and it was practical whilst jogging.
Also, it isnt an example of the flooding of dogs with real fears, that people state CM uses on dogs (although i have hardly seen any CM myself).
Yours just an example of a dog that has got temporarily spooked by something, which your husband approached by simply not drawing attention to it and letting his dog get thru it without fear, favour, or attention, letting his dog follow his confidence.
That situation, as described, would be a pretty standard approach for most dog trainers, including reward based ones....the one thing that CM preaches - the owner to have calm confidence, is what most trainers believe and have done for many years.
Natch, it depends upon the dog.
If you have dogs with clinical fear or anxiety disorders or issues of missing socialisation, then you use a systematic desensitization approach, not a flooding one, as appears to be the case with CM sometimes.
If you have a dog with a fleeting everyday situational 'fear reaction', you can just work thru it there and then, depending upon your own dog and your best judgement.
Also, the fact your were jogging makes it easier. Plus you were jogging awayfrom the spooky thing, which is key.
Whereas, if you take the CM example that people refer to (although i havent seen it): throwing a dog into a swimming pool that had a clear fear of water.
Meaning the dog had no means of escape....flooding in more ways than one! LOL.
I did see one episode myself that did involve clear flooding, which was a risk to the dog and special needs residents.
However, i feel that reward based trainers also over egg the SD approach.
Because reward based trainers can loose sight of the woods for the trees when it comes to the Bible of the philosophical buzz phrases/theories, such as SD.
Ive seen cases of reward based trainers faffing about with SD, when the dog just needed to make a leap, and the SD was prolonging the fear reaction.
I do use SD, i just dont necessarily always agree with the way it is applied.
To me, SD isnt a long drip drip series of small steps, its an initial small series of steps, followed by a well judged 'trainer compelled' jump forward, and can even include a few steps back then small step forward or a small step back followed by a big step forward.
So it doesnt always have to be the 'fixed prescribed' long straight lines, it can have curves and bends..i prefer the phrase unsystematic desensitization myself.
Good post (sorry that you're feeling ignored but i think your posts are so sensible no one can say anything against them
)I think that anyone who only ever considers one method of training is doing dogs a disservice. Not every dog is the same and even with one particular dog, some approaches will work better in certain situations.
I also think that those aruging against him sometimes give the impression that it is wrong to make a dog do anything with which it is uncomfortable or which the dog just doesn't want to do. Is that really the case?
I have forced Stumpy into many situations where she is uncomfortable and she has come through it a happy and more confident dog (whether this would be classed as flooding or not, I'm not really sure). There are other situations where I have not felt that method appropriate.
I don't like everything that Caesar does and it does worry me that inexperienced people will try to follow his example.
But at least he is a guy who is prepared to listen and to learn from others and he does use a variety of techniques, I have even seen him use positive reinforcement and clicker training.
What I would be really interested in seeing is an unbiased update on every dog that he has worked with. I don't expect him to have been successful on them all, but I'd really like to see if many are worse, as many of the anti CM claim is likely to be the case.
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Location: dogsville
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,141
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30-07-2009, 01:06 PM
Originally Posted by Hali
Good post (sorry that you're feeling ignored but i think your posts are so sensible no one can say anything against them
)I think that anyone who only ever considers one method of training is doing dogs a disservice. Not every dog is the same and even with one particular dog, some approaches will work better in certain situations.
I also think that those aruging against him sometimes give the impression that it is wrong to make a dog do anything with which it is uncomfortable or which the dog just doesn't want to do. Is that really the case?
I have forced Stumpy into many situations where she is uncomfortable and she has come through it a happy and more confident dog (whether this would be classed as flooding or not, I'm not really sure). There are other situations where I have not felt that method appropriate.
I don't like everything that Caesar does and it does worry me that inexperienced people will try to follow his example.
But at least he is a guy who is prepared to listen and to learn from others and he does use a variety of techniques, I have even seen him use positive reinforcement and clicker training.
What I would be really interested in seeing is an unbiased update on every dog that he has worked with. I don't expect him to have been successful on them all, but I'd really like to see if many are worse, as many of the anti CM claim is likely to be the case.
The problems arise because this is a 'trainer' on mainstream tv who advocates quite physical methods on dogs who are offering up calming signals or dogs who are stressed beyond belief. It is a recipe for disaster...not only for the dogs that he is dealing with, but also, as you say, for the inexperienced people watching. It is a bit like the use of a rattle bottle on another tv show. I got fed up of seeing people shaking bottles at their dogs on walks and teaching them the exact opposite of what they were trying to teach them. I think some of these 'quick soloution' methods that people watch on tv can cause massive problems. It's sad....as someone in that position could do so much good....
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