Which is what shock collars do. Thanks for clearing that up for us all.

Do you consider some aversives are worse than others? What about using a sharp "no", or ignoring the dog & depriving it of attention, or a jerk on a lead?

Obviously no dog (or person or any other animal) goes through it's whole life without experiencing & learning from aversives. But there's a lot of difference between deliberately inflicting what can be very severe pain on a dog in the form of an electric shock, & a sharp "no" or even a quick lead jerk.

Unfortunately, if physical punishment is to work, it has to be appropriate to the nature of the behaviour, immediate & contiguous with the behaviour you're trying to stop, & strong/harsh enough for it stop the behaviour & act as a deterrent in future. Now there are plenty of scientific studies to show that the effective use of such extreme & harsh punishments, can have huge emotional fallout & affect the animal for possibly the rest of its life. Alternatively the unwanted behaviour stops but other unwanted behaviours emerge. And that is only if the person inflicting the training gets it right!! What if they don't?

I don't think any of us can, with hand on heart, say that we've never ever punished our dogs is some way, even if only mildly & inadvertently. We're only human after all. But this is a world away from choosing to inflict severe pain on an animal in the interests of training. And if shocking a sheep-chasing dog is the only way you can think of to stop that dog from being pts, then I would rather see the dog pts than subjected repeatedly to an electric shock collar.

BTW I can think of at least 3 ways to allow a sheep-chasing dog to lead a relatively happy life, free from physical pain & none of them involve using a shock collar. It may mean that the dog goes to live somewhere away from sheep, or has to have a lot of on lead walks, or is properly trained as a working sheep dog, ~ but IMO that's still way better than administering electric shocks.

My point is if you think the aggression is fear based and spend ages praising and rewarding the dog around others, when in fact the dog just likes to beat up other dogs you won't achieve anything.

Instead of worrying about why the dog is aggressive I prefer to simply show the dog how to be social.

Re aversives.
They are a pretty standard part of life, we are all controlled by aversives constantly. If you genuinly believe death is better than aversives I suggest you kill yourself now!

Adam

I'd rather be dead than to live in fear of some jerk with a shock collar zapping the crap out of me for doing the wrong thing.

You don't seem to understand dogs or training at all. This is not a surprise. You need to treat the ROOT CAUSE of why the dog is acting the way he/she is. And most dogs aggressive reactions (to humans OR dogs OR children) are because of fear.

Since you seem to think aversives are just fine, why don't you accept the challenge people have put out for you.

For a complete over view of all the research on e collars go here.

http://smartdogs.wordpress.com/2010/...-cite-no-evil/

Adam

Adam ~ yet again I'll ask (& for those others that have asked as well) ~ if shock collars don't hurt, will you put a shock collar on yourself & allow a Dogsey member to "stim" you & video it for the rest of us to see? You are very keen to keep posting links to videos where dogs are subjected to shock collars, but what about a control video of you being "stimmed"? Put your money where your mouth & prove to us & yourself that these collars don't hurt!

Only from what I have learned.....someone correct me if this is wrong....
Extreme socoipaths (Iv heard can also have narcisitict tenadancies) can be FULLY aware that they are causing pain etc BUT they cannot actually connect with that, they are unable to EMPATHISE with an animal/person even knowing the fact that harm is being caused. They do however like to control situations and others, bringing the world to revolve around them - which in their mind it already does.

I think there is definatley someone on here who fits the bill and it is very worrying indeed. Not only for animals.

1, The extreme 'storytelling' and 'acting' to further their own fantasy.
2, The recognision of other ways working but the complete refusal to even try them - since they must continue with their mission.
3, The views that a dog is worth saving only if it can serve that individuals chosen purpose. (they are after all, 'god')
4, The continued posting that is always causing controversy and attention - their world revolves around them. So to be getting the attention and control they deserve will not put them off-track, it rather suits them.

For the record Adam, NO-ONE here is going to be interested in an 'overview' of e-collars...so I for one, since I can train my dog without this 'tool' will not be clicking on that link.

More videos on treating dog aggresison (and human) with e collars.

http://www.youtube.com/user/panzerto...17/g7MmWCr61vE

http://www.youtube.com/user/panzerto.../0/kKNkTyVKEYE

http://www.youtube.com/user/panzerto.../5/QTdgLmOU50o

(saved from pts, doesn't he look happy)

http://www.youtube.com/user/panzerto...10/up1ViGg0pCM

http://www.youtube.com/user/panzerto...15/IScq3VcYCMc

Adam

This is what Adam is incapable of understanding Crysania. He deems giving time, space, controlling the dogs environment, providing encouragement etc all 'pointless' (further back in this thread)

What he cannot admit is that this is far from pointless since many trainers and owners do this so that they can 'diagnose' the root cause of aggression ACCURATLEY and PROPERLY, which in turn leads to a sustainable, positive training plan for both owner and dog with long term results being the main aim, that and to be able to train in a way that still allows the dog to develop in other ways too.

However, if you dont do this then IMHO you will only be masking symptoms and possibly creating MORE of a problem which of course then means you are stuck relying on the E-collar method.

The e-collar, sorry, lets give it its full and less 'giftwrapped' name, Electric Shock Collar, is for people to use when they have no clue about how to train their dog, since they have not actually managed to determine what the root cause of their problems are. In Adams case this also seems to translate into, him not having to admit he is not fully 100% right. This would cause him a crisis in itself. Adam if this isnt the case, feel free to refute, although you have made this pretty obvious.

And I'll ask yet again Adam!

There's absolutely no way I'll watch any of your video links until a Dogsey member has supplied us with video footage of YOU being "stimmed".