I haven't kept up with this thread so sorry if I've missed anything pertinent. I'd just like to add a few comments.





I've read an awful lot on lists about the merits of inbreeding and assortative mating and opinions are of course varied. The only actual attempt at statistically analysing this that I know of is one by Dr Bruce Cattanach on his breed, the Boxer.

He used data on champion Boxers from 1930 - 1978, looking at inbreeding levels of the champions and their parents. There was some evidence to suggest that inbreeding on very successful dogs did tend to produce winning offspring but the overall trend was that, the higher the inbreeding, the lower the chances of successful offspring.


http://www.steynmere.com/ARTICLES8.html


I will add that my own experience in breeding does refect this too. I'm not totally against the occasional inbred mating for specific purposes and have done a father x daughter breeding in Lapphunds, but my main method was to outcross whenever possible.

In Bernese, the breed record holder, Fido was an outcross (COI <1% 5g) and one of the breed's top producing bitches, Ebony was also outcross bred. She produced a champion in each of her three litters to three different sires.




I think it would need a drastic overhaul of KC policies to allow outcross breeding to other breeds... I know the bobtail Boxer was a special case with prior permission from the KC. The KC does now though give a lifeline to breeds with an unregistered population in the UK, eg the Bearded Collie. Unregistered dogs are permitted to be bred from and progeny registered but unfortunately the KC will only take on dogs that have been given approval from their breed club.

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/pr...q=registration

I know of one case in Beardies where working strain dogs, which do actually fit the standard closer than the overcoated showdogs, were refused by the breed club as they "lacked type."

And on this thing 'type' ..... to effect a change in breeding protocols with regard to the showring, I think there needs to be a whole change in the way we see the standards. Not as a blueprint as so many believe them to be, no standard could ever be that precise, but as a guide... and as a guard against exaggerations.

Assortative breeding will lend itself to a more diverse phenotype within breeds but is that really such a bad thing? This notion of 'fixing type' and attempting to cleanse a breed of faults and defects by inbreeding is now outdated and flawed.

The argument that inbreeding does occur in the natural world is often put forward and we have examples of where this has sutained a succesful population as in the Chillingham herd of cattle, but the selection criteria here is very different from that of show breeders and in a truly wild situation, inbreeding is used only as a last resort when outcrossing is not an option. The one sure way to reduce genetic diversity faster than inbreeding is no breeding, so to sustain the population until outcrossing is possible, inbreeding is used.

Unfortunately we don't have the option of truly outcrossing within breeds, at least probably not in the majority of breeds, as the trend for 'linebreeding' (which is just a lesser form of inbreeding) over many generations has leached away the gene pools. In the light of this, I think the way forward at the very least is to halt the trend in reducing diversity by outlawing close inbreeding and discouraging linebreeding. And hopefully the KC will take further steps to increase breed diversity by allowing cross breeding.

Believe me, my head is not firmly stuck in the ground... nor take the attitude of "its all ok", I know what health problems my breed suffer, and frustratingly , know we do to little in health screening our breed.... code of ethics for the UK boxer will only include "heart scoring" for AS ..

As world wide a much more in depth list of health screening takes place ..OK, the argument may be ..the UK Boxer does not have as big a problem with ...i.e Hips, thyroid/spondylosis , but sadly we do, one dog it one to many.


No, honest I wont



Yes I know that, that was not the point I was trying to make...

With regards the programme, and the resulting hysteria on inbreeding... it gives the impression, that all our breeders of all breeds are actively churning out inbred dogs, litter after litter /generation after generation.... this is giving a totally false impression....hence my refferal to any given dogs(present day_ pedigree (5 gen) ,going from my own, their is one common ancestor on both side, but not [B]one[B] inbred mating

Of cause you go back far enough , you will find it.... and even today you will still find the odd one, mostly from endangered breeds...

Points taken jackie,
agree some hysteria is around, but its also an opportunity to move forward and shift some thinking too

I haven't kept up with this thread so sorry if I've missed anything pertinent. I'd just like to add a few comments.





I've read an awful lot on lists about the merits of inbreeding and assortative mating and opinions are of course varied. The only actual attempt at statistically analysing this that I know of is one by Dr Bruce Cattanach on his breed, the Boxer.

He used data on champion Boxers from 1930 - 1978, looking at inbreeding levels of the champions and their parents. There was some evidence to suggest that inbreeding on very successful dogs did tend to produce winning offspring but the overall trend was that, the higher the inbreeding, the lower the chances of successful offspring.


http://www.steynmere.com/ARTICLES8.html


I will add that my own experience in breeding does refect this too. I'm not totally against the occasional inbred mating for specific purposes and have done a father x daughter breeding in Lapphunds, but my main method was to outcross whenever possible.

In Bernese, the breed record holder, Fido was an outcross (COI <1% 5g) and one of the breed's top producing bitches, Ebony was also outcross bred. She produced a champion in each of her three litters to three different sires.




I think it would need a drastic overhaul of KC policies to allow outcross breeding to other breeds... I know the bobtail Boxer was a special case with prior permission from the KC. The KC does now though give a lifeline to breeds with an unregistered population in the UK, eg the Bearded Collie. Unregistered dogs are permitted to be bred from and progeny registered but unfortunately the KC will only take on dogs that have been given approval from their breed club.

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/pr...q=registration

I know of one case in Beardies where working strain dogs, which do actually fit the standard closer than the overcoated showdogs, were refused by the breed club as they "lacked type."

And on this thing 'type' ..... to effect a change in breeding protocols with regard to the showring, I think there needs to be a whole change in the way we see the standards. Not as a blueprint as so many believe them to be, no standard could ever be that precise, but as a guide... and as a guard against exaggerations.

Assortative breeding will lend itself to a more diverse phenotype within breeds but is that really such a bad thing? This notion of 'fixing type' and attempting to cleanse a breed of faults and defects by inbreeding is now outdated and flawed.

The argument that inbreeding does occur in the natural world is often put forward and we have examples of where this has sutained a succesful population as in the Chillingham herd of cattle, but the selection criteria here is very different from that of show breeders and in a truly wild situation, inbreeding is used only as a last resort when outcrossing is not an option. The one sure way to reduce genetic diversity faster than inbreeding is no breeding, so to sustain the population until outcrossing is possible, inbreeding is used.

Unfortunately we don't have the option of truly outcrossing within breeds, at least probably not in the majority of breeds, as the trend for 'linebreeding' (which is just a lesser form of inbreeding) over many generations has leached away the gene pools. In the light of this, I think the way forward at the very least is to halt the trend in reducing diversity by outlawing close inbreeding and discouraging linebreeding. And hopefully the KC will take further steps to increase breed diversity by allowing cross breeding.

Excellent post

If you dont mind me answering this, I think we need to clear something up.... no one has suggested anywhere in this thread, that PW should not own/rescue pedigree dogs, every has a choice to own, what ever they like, and no where has it been stated that pedigrees dont deserve to be re homed....that assumption may have been placed in this thread by Spot, misinterpreting what she wanted to see..

My problem and frustration comes from the simple fact ... PW has very strong views on breeders, and pedigree`s... fine I commend her for that, but usually when people have strong convictions they live by those principles,, .

Yet to some of us, the fact someone who has such a dislike for pedigrees and their breeders, to then go and take 6 pedigree rescues of all different breeds, then preach to those who choose to buy and breed, that we are doing wrong , sounds a little hypercritical..

You would expect someone who`s sole purpose on this board is to dig at breeds and their breeders... to live by their convictions , by owning and rescuing X breeds..

The same principle would go for someone with such strong convictions towards pedigree dogs.... they would gain more respect if they lived by their beliefs, and only rescued Xbreeds.

If you dont mind me answering this, I think we need to clear something up.... no one has suggested anywhere in this thread, that PW should not own/rescue pedigree dogs, every has a choice to own, what ever they like, and no where has it been stated that pedigrees dont deserve to be re homed....that assumption may have been placed in this thread by Spot, misinterpreting what she wanted to see.

From my own point of view...others will speak for themselves.

My problem and frustration comes from the simple fact ... PW has very strong views on breeders, and pedigree`s... fine I commend her for that, but usually when people have strong convictions they live by those principles,,

You would not get a vegetarian eat meat , because she/he had no part in killing the cow.

Yet to some of us, the fact someone who has such a dislike for pedigrees and their breeders, to then go and take 6 pedigree rescues of all different breeds, then preach to those who choose to buy and breed, that we are doing wrong , sounds a little hypercritical.

You would expect someone who`s sole purpose on this board is to dig at breeds and their breeders... to live by their convictions , by owning and rescuing X breeds.

Just like I would never buy from a pF/byb.... as long as we are taking them in, they will be bred.

The harsh truth is, if we stopped buying from them, they would have surplus stock, and eventually give up trading.

The same principle would go for someone with such strong convictions towards pedigree dogs.... they would gain more respect if they lived by their beliefs, and only rescued Xbreeds.