LOL----I have known MANY resource guarders and none have reacted with aggression----maybe you come over to dogs as bit of a wimp and thats why you get that reaction. That is probably why you have to use the methods you use as well. Explains a lot.

rune

Gobbledegook and I think you know it.

Another black is actually white argument

You just dont understand learning theory do you.
The dog associates returning to you as a fun rewarding thing in its own right, the recal becomes AS nice as eating or playing with the toy
anyway you are decribing having to wait for something as a bad thing - have you never had something to look forward to and the anticipation of it is enjoyable and actually makes the event better??

Course you can manage situations
As wilbar posts often, you can exercise your dog only in a safe managed place like your garden until their stress levels drop, and then you teach them a solid alternative behaviour before you ever have to be in the situation
You can muzzle your dog, you can pick your routes so you can always see far enough ahead

I love how you always use the 'this must be fixed right now or the dog must be put to sleep'
If an owner is unable to manage to snap on a lead around sheep, take different walks and do different things to physically and mentaly stimulate their dog, if they are so desperate for the quick fix and care about the dog so little that they will put him to sleep for something that is actually very simple to manage
Then that sounds like an owner who dosent really care all that much about their dog, I am sure most of us would take the small hassle to find a safe place to walk their dog rather than put them to sleep

couldnt agree more

Adam, I hope you never had kids because believe me, you really do need to manage the environment while the learning process develops.

We all manage behaviour everyday of our lives - our own, our childrens, our dogs. It's part of life.

You also have to advise to manage the environment while the dogs you help train are proofed in that training - well, hopefully you do

I have to admit this is what I've considered an ecollar for but I can't even have Rupe off leash in the garden because of sheep so close. We have a fence that's less than 3ft in some places and we're not allowed to re-fence it despite other parts being at least 7ft It's not that I want a quick fix, I want him to at least have some freedom in the garden. Ah well, we're out of here soon, hopefully out in Germany we'll have decent fencing.

Very well said Ben

And I'd like to pick up on your last paragraph about looking for the good to reward, rather than waiting for the bad so that you can punish. Apart from the huge emotional difference it makes to the dog depending on whether they are trained using mainly positive reinforcement, or punishment or neg reinforcement, I think it says an awful lot about the person doing the teaching too!

I know from my own experiences how much nicer it is to use pos R, that it is so lovely to see a dog learn something new & be pleased with itself. The feedback from the dog is my reward because I see a happy, confident dog, eager to learn more, unafraid to try things, to solve problems, to communicate with me, to want to be with me. That's my reward & why I'll repeat my behaviour & always use pos R as far as I possibly can.

If dog training meant having to cause a dog to feel pain, to become fearful of something, to be shut down & cowering, to lead a life full of anxiety, then I don't think I'd want anything to do with dog training ~ to me that would be hugely punishing & not a behaviour I'd want to repeat. Because getting satisfaction from inflicting pain on an animal (when there's no reason to) would make me a sadist, i.e. someone who derives pleasure as a result of inflicting pain or watching pain inflicted on others.

So someone who says "I choose to use physical aversives as a first option in training in many cases" is, IMO, nothing more than a sadist ~ someone who apparently gets their "reward" from inflicting pain or watching pain inflicted on others ~ & because in OC terms, their sadistic behaviour is repeated, over & over again, they clearly feel rewarded by this.

So what does that say about the person using punishment to train dogs? Personally I'd be absolutely mortified if I was showing my true colours in that way ~ announcing to world that I was a sadist, that I felt satisfaction from causing pain & suffering ~ how shameful would that be?!! I'd just want to crawl under a stone with the embarrassment of it all.

But on top of that, the sadist who gets pleasure from inflicting pain, comes back time & time again, to announce to the world that they are sadist!! That sadist keeps posting on open internet forums "I am a sadist" in no uncertain terms ~ what is the reward for doing that? What is the reward from continually getting put down & humiliated on an open forum? The term masochist springs to mind now ~ someone who derives pleasure from being physically or emotionally humiliated & abused.

So the choice to use pain, fear & cruelty as a first option in training dogs, & then repeatedly announce this on an open internet forum screams "I am a sadomasochist"

PS I've come to this conclusion using OC principles alone

I agree.

Adam, I challenged you a while back on some thread to either back this up (and no, Skinner did not say this ) or shut up about it - i.e. stop spreading lies.

IF you can back it up, fine, but you know perfectly well that you cannot.

So either back it up with something very clear, or quit it

Agree, fab post there, Ben

I love knowing that the dog has that huge emotional difference - and I find it so hard to watch (real life or video) anything that shows the dog is experiencing chronic bad stress whilst being trained.

Why do some people choose to use "the dark side" rather than choose complete and utter joy?

It baffles me - but I do think that they have a lot missing i their own lives.

Take some of those who avidly chase across forums for one purpose only. Their lives appear empty and sad. Perhaps their only power is over dogs and on the internet.

Spot on Wilbar, spot on! My views exactly!

I agree too about, if dog training meant having to be unkind, harsh, and to produce cowering anxious dogs, then I too would not want to be in it at all. I'd avoid it like the plague.

...

I also agree with your comments about people who choose to abuse dogs in that way have sadistic tendencies. I could understand when, once, we had no other ideas of how to train a dog - I muself used to use choke chains etc as I knew of no other way - but now that we DO have that knowledge, there is no excuse.

I altered my ways as soon as I could, because I was never happy with using aversives and always felt bad about it. (Guess that means, thankfully, that I am NOT a sadist ).
....

Wys
x

These days, e-collar trainers take it further than this. They don't actually wait for bad things to punish, they punish until the dog works out what the right thing at the time is. The shock is applied and held until the dog adopts the position the trainer wants. The dog has no idea what that is until it is pushed, pulled or simply works it out, then the punishment stops

Unforgivable, unnecessary and totally wrong!