I'm just dipping in and have not followed the thread, but I wanted to say that IME one scuffle can certainly lead to regression/fear problems arising/etc

Depends on the dog and the situation though .... it's more likely if your dog is innately sensitive/reactive by nature.

Wys
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sorry double post

My dog is very sociable and friendly, (although she will bark a bit) but I always put her in the living room anyway. It's just easier, gives her less to worry about, and means that any visitor is not intimidated.

Also with the door open, although she's fab with people and dogs walking past, you just never know - I'd not trust a dog 100% in that situation, better to be safe. I guess i'm really thinking about my dog's safety, as it's all too easy for dogs to be the "bad guys" these days, when years ago, people didn't worry so much.

My grandad's terrier bit a passer by once who put his hand through the gate. Passer by was furious. Grandad opened the gate, said to passer by "now stroke him" and he did, and the terrier was friendly. That was all ittook, problem over, passer by accepted he was to blame and went on his way happy. If only that would happen today!

Wys
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Ooops me again, sorry!

Just caught up with the thread. It sounds as if Cain may have indeed had a problem with the DAP collar running out, and this can have added to any stress that occurred.

Do you find that the collar does make a difference?

It sounds too as if he's been playing rough (can understand that, as you wanted him to have fun and relax with other dogs who could take what he dished out) but that perhaps is now all he knows? and so then, when his (to him) playful overtures are "told off" perhaps he then gets upset/frustrated/reactive etc as he does not know, socially, how to handle the situation.

It sounds as if the walks might be both a good thing (Cain walking along sniffing etc) and also perhaps a confusing thing for him. Difficult call.

My dog (who was originally very sociable) was made fear aggressive on social dog walks. I had to take her out of them and work with her myself, to improve her and she is now sociable again. However, I do know other dogs who improved immensely. It really does, I think, dpeend on the individual dog, and exactly what they are learning themselves, not what we may think they are learning.

You may enjoy reading:

http://www.dogtrain.co.uk/shop/produ...products_id=67 The dog aggression workbook for owners, I'd say this is very useful

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bringing-Lig...der_1929242174 a human aggressive dog, but a good diary with what went wrong, and what can be done wrong, as well as how the success occurred.

Unfortunately, no book gives an actual prescription for solving the problem, as that's not possible, but these are good/interesting.

Wys
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Thanks Karly, we'll definately take a week or so off to calm it down and I'll PM you to work out a date

Thanks Wys for all your replies Yes, the DAP collar makes a HUGE difference to him. He is totally unmanagable without it, a really reactive lungy monster. One month I forgot it ran out and I had an awful walk where he lunged at every signle person and bike we passed, he was so bad I had to turn around and take him home after only 5 mins. I couldn't figure it out, then it clicked and I realised that he'd had his collar on 5 weeks and it only lasts up to 4. It's due to run out this weekend and has always lasted the full 4 weeks before but it is possible it ran out a bit early. It'll be obvious in the next few days if the collar was the cause becuase it effects work (and wear off!) really quickly.

Cain totally missed the vital puppy socialisation and before we got him I know he was getting regularly attacked by another male dog in the house. He was fearful of dogs at first but then as he relaxed this splatting behaviour came out. It is how Cain shows his intention to play, he doesn't know it's inappropriate. While wanting to avoid negative interactions with other dogs, he does have to learn how to behave at some point and it's not something I can teach him, it's got to come from a dog (e.g. I remove him breifly from play everytime he splats another dog but he doesn't get it).

With Kiki, he reacted to her corrections the first few times, but subsided fairly quickly and became calm and respectful around her. She was very good, only interviening when he crossed the line and otherwise walking along very nicely with him. He soon became relaxed enough to explore his surroundings instead of focusing only on the dogs, which is his normal behaviour.

It's tough because he does want to get off lead and play but its hard because there are too many dogs around and he plays to rough, upsets other dogs and then it becomes negative. So I have to ckeep him on lead and ontrol him, it's so hard to find the balance between protecting him and exposing him so he can learn. Hopefully we'll start with some Kiki walks and maybe he can go back to group walks in the future if he can handle it.

If no one has suggested it, the best success story I've read was a book by Pamela Dennison called Bringing Light to Shadow.

In it, she adopted a fear aggressive/human aggressive border collie and in 18 months takes him from that to getting his CGC. The book is a sort of diary format with specific things she did that got him there. It's not a memoir where she just highlights and glosses over what she did. She gives practically a day by day training manual for the work she did with this dog, tells what works and what didn't, and when she made mistakes that set things back. It's a really impressive book.

She does use the D word . She uses the D word in its original meaning before the mexican bandit hijacked it. Meaning Bossy. As in `dominant agggression` - or a dog who is arrogant and wants to control its surroundings (eg Daisy). As opposed to `Nervous aggression` where the dog`s problems are caused by insecurity. (eg Cain)
I wouldn`t agree with everything she says - she doesn`t like tuggy games for instance. (But she does accept this is a `grey area`. ) So substitute Bossy for Dominant every time it appears and it makes perfect sense.
She does use the term leader (again a mexican hijack) but I have heard exactly the same advice used in the Deferment method. Your dog must learn to hand over the reins to you. It is your job to protect your space (and the dogs`). It is your job to say who can come in the house.
No book or guru or trainer will heal your dog. It is a partnership. and you are the senior partner because you set the rules.
I still think you need to go back to basics. Can he walk down the road in a civilised manner with you? If not, that is the place to start.

btw - be careful the collar doesn`t become a crutch for you. It is a training tool, not something he will need long term.

Thanks Crysania, actually Wys just edited hers to add the same book, which is a good indicator if you've both mentioned it! Has anyone read How to Right and Dog Gone Wrong? It's by the same author.

Yeah this. It's 100% positive training and I really enjoyed it. I think she looks at dominance and leader as very different from how they've to be known. Dominant yes, bossy. Many people use the term leader, but it very well could be substituted for "parent" -- those who have kids must be their leader too, but it's not the shove them around discipline them way. It's in the "show them how to behave and get along in society" kind of way.

I don't think the book would heal anyone's dog, but it may give some ideas and the original post was looking for success stories and it was the first one that came to mind. I also liked it because she didn't gloss over when she made mistakes. A lot of books give you the impression that things were smooth sailing, but Dennison makes sure you know she made mistakes and learned from them. There are some excellent things in there.

I haven't, but it's on my list of books to read! Dennison is a great positive trainer so I'd imagine it can't be a bad thing to read! The more resources at your disposal the better.