I don't think it's fair to say people are being irresponsible. Many have gone down this route in the hope of a kinder way forward and with the best intentions. While you have every right to be skeptical of the therapy, there's no need to be so disparaging of the people that try it.

that`s ok - it`s what the Ignore list is for!

I have no doubt they have good intentions - doesn't mean that there actions are not irresponsible.
There is no evidence that nosodes are kind. Vaccinations are kind gentle preventative measures and when people check there are minimal problems with huge benefits in disease prevention.

Note - just because someone says nosodes are gentle doesn't make it so. They need to prove it. Something that the journals supportive of the approach admit they cannot do!

Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree. Just look at the media very recently, with the girls in Spain and severe reactions to Gardasil. Or the Bailey Banks compensation award by the US vaccine court for MMR vaccine damage.

I did look
40 million doses of gardasil were dispensed worldwide, in spain a batch of 76 000 was withdrawn (0.19%) because 2 girls became ill. The relevant authorities in Spain make no claim that there was causation but took a precautionary approach with one batch. The vaccination programme is still running. I have no idea whether the link was established.

Bailey banks is unfortunate, but these are known quantified risks of 0.1 - 0,2 cases per million. In comparison neurological sequelae to measles viruses are 1 in 1000. Add to those all the other potiential problems that can occur from measles and the balance of risk favours vaccination by about a mile.
I can't discuss the daily mail article today as I wouldn't trust their science reporting.

Nosodes may not have any side effects but they have no protectective effects either

I am not arguing for nosodes, but for choice. I am pro-choice.

Furthermore, I am arguing that vaccinations are NOT gentle and are NOT without problems. The Gardasil vaccine has caused a huge number of unpleasant and serious side effects in girls, not just the ones in Spain, which have involved convulsions.

Bailey Banks is not alone wrt MMR and autism/compensation; there is also Hannah Poling. These are two cases that managed to get through the system - a system that typically denies any culpability. The new JCVI have serious links to drug companies that manufacture the vaccines. How corrupt is that? And the first MMR vaccine, withdrawn because of the Urabe mumps strain and the viral meningitis risks.

What does this have to do with dogs and vaccines?

I am trying to make the point that there is no such thing as a completely safe medical intervention and I am concerned that people such as yourself gloss over the potential problems - or even the serious problems inherent in some. It gives people a false sense of security and I think that people should be completely aware of the ins and outs - as I try to be.

I simply believe that every dog and vaccine should be evaluated on a case by case basis and minimum intervention adopted. So if a vaccine manufacturer offers up to 4 years immunity - why continue to booster in between? Titre test if you can - I know it's not dogs but the booster MMR is not a booster but a way of catching those that have not been immunised by the first shot. So those that are already 'immune' are getting a second dose. It's a comparison, that's all. Be wary if the dog is already immuno-compromised, if there are health problems. Be savvy on abundance of disease. That kind of thing.

I am not anti-vaccine, but pro-choice. And I think the public should be given better information so that they are better informed. Not everyone comes from a scientific background or knows how to find out pertinent information.

Cross posted from another forum by me.

The Bailey court action is not proof of a link between MMR and Autism although the religiuos groups would like that confusion to remain. If you read the court PDF it is clear that pervasive development disorders (PDD) was the diagnosis. This was as a result of Acute Disseminated Encephalomyelitis (ADEM which is a recognised though rare side effect of vaccination, not just MMR?

PDD is a catch all term for a lot of neurological problems such as but not limited to autism. In fact i think the full diagnosis in this case is PDD-NOS.



But back to canine vaccination - care to document these reactions here as I have looked and asked on other forums? I've looked on NCBI and google scholar but not on web of knowledge for peer reviewed literature and found none supporting a large population of affected dogs.


There are 100% safe anythings. All carry a risk but vaccinations are one of the safest things around, pretending otherwise is simply perverse. I have quantified some risks in terms of MMR and am looking for the info on canines. I have in other threads posted some investigations that contradict the popular belief that the lepto vaccination is somehow worse than others. These have been ignored by the pro choice mentality.
Looked at objectively there are relatively few dogs that are unable to be vaccinated. Exceptionalism by carers sometimes forces vets to agree that this may be the case for their animal but may be scientifically difficult to justify.

To I have no problems with 4 year boosters if the data can support protection (not titre values which may not correlate to protection) but lepto does appear to require 12 month boosters.

I agree with more info but it has to be explained and put into context which requires and understanding of the statistics. Look at the figures for the MMR in a previous post for an example of what I mean.

I hope the bit in bold is not aimed at me - I'd rather not be called 'perverse', if you don't mind. Do you need to resort to insults to make your point? It is comments such as this that cause people to roll their eyes and not bother to engage in further discussion or take you seriously. I do not agree with your point of view, EBMEDIC, and I find your opinion extremely one-sided and your views blinkered. I am not concluding that MMR causes autism, as I understand it there is still uncertainty. I was demonstrating that vaccinations carry risks, sometimes unacceptable ones.

Talassie - I have found some links that might interest you/help:

http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm

http://www.gdhfa.org/ImmuneSystem.htm

http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublicati...act/154/15/457

Serum antibody titres to canine parvovirus, adenovirus and distemper virus in dogs in the UK which had not been vaccinated for at least three years

M. Böhm BVSc, DSAM, MRCVS1, H. Thompson BVMS, PhD, MRCVS2, A. Weir AIMLT2, A. M. Hasted MSc, CStat3, N. S. Maxwell MA, CertVR, MRCVS4, and M. E. Herrtage MA, BVSc, DVR, DVD, DSAM, DECVIM, DECVDI, MRCVS1 1 Queen's Veterinary School Hospital, Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, Madingley Road, Cambridge CB3 0ES
2 Canine Infectious Diseases Research Unit, Department of Veterinary Pathology, University of Glasgow Veterinary School, Glasgow G61 1QH
3 Penhales House, Ruscombe Lane, Ruscombe, Reading RG10 9JN
4 Lady Margaret House, St Anne's Road, Prestwich, Manchester M25 8LF


Antibody titres to canine distemper (CDV), canine parvovirus (CPV) and canine adenovirus (CAV) were measured in 144 adult dogs that had not been vaccinated for between three and 15 years. Protective antibodies to CPV were present in 95 per cent of the population, to CDV in 71·5 per cent and to CAV in 82 per cent. The prevalence of protective titres did not decrease with increasing time interval from the last accination for any of the three diseases studied. Booster vaccination increased the dogs CAV titres. For comparative purposes, 199 puppies were sampled at the time of their first and second vaccination. In the case of CPV and CAV a significantly higher proportion of the adult dogs were protected than of the puppies immediately after they were vaccinated. Natural CPV boosting was strongly suspected because the dogs had significantly higher titres three years after their primary vaccination than two weeks after it and three unvaccinated dogs had acquired protective antibody levels uneventfully. There was no evidence of natural exposure to CDV.

Thanks for the links lucky star. I day board her in a kennels that accepts titre testing so it hasn't caused me any problems but I mentioned it just to show that there are still those who don't accept the new vaccination guidelines.
I have posted a new thread about Tala's titre results.