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Location: London, UK
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,498
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15-07-2011, 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by labradork 
How old is he now?
My Labradors (boys especially) have always been a pain in the bum with recall around other dogs until they reached 2+ years of age. As they matured with age they became naturally better and less obsessed.
Thanks LABRADORK.
Dex has just turned two.
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Location: Fife, UK
Joined: Oct 2010
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15-07-2011, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by Bitkin
Well, I have no wish to knock any method of training if it actually works............but the idea of only feeding a dog when out on a walk, during a training session has left me with my mouth open in shock.
Tabitha, if it's the way that you think is right for Dex then read no further, and good luck.
Surely dogs, especially rescue or rehomed dogs, require stability and consistency in their daily lives in order to feel secure and happy. by knowing that when they come back they get fed, they get stability and and consistency but ALSO freedom and further exercise and socialisation/play The daily food ration arriving in the bowl is an absolute highlight for many dogs, and that full tummy in the evening often results in a good night's sleep for everyone. But for some its not a highlight its just that its there and its a given and why not use that enthusiasm to encourage a dog to be a good member of society and one that its owners can enjoy exercising Only feeding in dribs and drabs whilst training just does not add up to the same thing,Sorry but I do not see how? and what about all those days when it is not possible to go out training? all what days? really dogs can learn every day of the year Is the dog then given a full meal in his bowl, in which case he will once again be puzzled and uncertain when it doesn't appear the next day. I wouldnt think so as there is also other things they can learn or just do recall games at home BUT in the longterm you dont have to rely on it... In Dex's case, doing the training inside would be pointless because he is good at recall when at home.
But he can still learn new things?
All I can see resulting from this is a confused and anxious dog, who is unsure when his next meal is coming. Also, is it a good idea to feed the equivalent of a meal whilst training/exercising? I myself am careful to avoid exercising a dog until at least an hour has elapsed after eating.
but your dog maybe dosnt pull you over, lunge at dogs/people/horses and potentially put himself and others at risk by running up to other dogs at such speed you cant hold a line
There are many fads and fashions in dog training, and if this is the latest one then the sooner it is consigned to history the better. But that is just my opinion..........something which everyone is entitled to. I will not expect others to agree with me.
I dont understand how this leads to an anxious, confused, starved dog
What is wrong in feeding a dog by hand, the same total amount of food in a day as dumping it in a bowl and handing it over for nothing
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Location: Wiltshire UK
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 14,404
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15-07-2011, 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by Bitkin
Surely dogs, especially rescue or rehomed dogs, require stability and consistency in their daily lives in order to feel secure and happy.
But to be fair that can be assured by lots more ways than via the food bowl. And in actual fact if you were consistent and fed the dog only on recalls then the issue does not arise
The daily food ration arriving in the bowl is an absolute highlight for many dogs, and that full tummy in the evening often results in a good night's sleep for everyone. Only feeding in dribs and drabs whilst training just does not add up to the same thing,
Many of us feed in dribs and drabs as we do not feed "treats" but the daily ration. It does not interfere with sleep!
and what about all those days when it is not possible to go out training? Is the dog then given a full meal in his bowl, in which case he will once again be puzzled and uncertain when it doesn't appear the next day.
You can do recalls in the house and garden.
And many dogs are not fed at the same times in the same places every day, they do not become puzzle or uncertain, anymore than they do if they go out at different times of day.
In Dex's case, doing the training inside would be pointless because he is good at recall when at home.
No, it is not pointless, it is actually REINFORCING the cue and the behaviour. Anything that is likely to make the behaviour STRONGER is not pointless.
All I can see resulting from this is a confused and anxious dog, who is unsure when his next meal is coming.
As I said, many many dogs do not have regular meals, it does not result in a confused or anxious dog.
Also, is it a good idea to feed the equivalent of a meal whilst training/exercising? I myself am careful to avoid exercising a dog until at least an hour has elapsed after eating.
That is a good question, that is why you do not take the dog out ONCE a day, and why you divide the meal up into portions so you can have several short sessions with a small amount of food! In order to avoid GD or GDV
There are many fads and fashions in dog training, and if this is the latest one then the sooner it is consigned to history the better.
This is not a fad or a fashion and has been done successfully for decades, it is the basic principle of positive reinforcement.
But that is just my opinion..........something which everyone is entitled to. I will not expect others to agree with me.
That is not what I take issue with, I take issue when people wrongly accuse others of being inhumane when nothing could be further from the truth.
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Location: Fife, UK
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,695
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15-07-2011, 06:39 PM
EDIT; RE Maturity. They do 'calm' with age but they only calm into 'sensible' dogs if the background training is there IMHO
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Location: Suffolk, England
Joined: Dec 2006
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15-07-2011, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by madmare
I am not the one that thread after thread makes out they know everything about everything better than anyone else and dismisses everyone elses ideas.
Like every schoolboy who misbehaves shall get two strokes of the cane, it might work for the odd recalcitrant youth but for most children it doesn't work, and withdrawing food from a dog is much the same in it's approach.
Also as anyone who has read some of the amazing stories of dogs will know they can go for very long periods without food so it is not always the perfect trainning aid, recall is a very complicated matter and for the dog it has no relevance at all, if we could properly get into a dogs mind we would likely see that they have a number of priorities going on all the time (Just like humans) and excitment and play (with other dogs) is often high on the agenda, if he hasn't eaten that morning........so what, he's likely already worked out how to get food, either from his human companion or by chasing and killing a rabbit, so for now playing with another dog is what he wants to do.
As Helena and others have shown a flexible approach works wonders, acknowledging that each and every dog is different, has a different personality, makes for a much better trainning regime rather than just belting out one way which may have worked in the past with one dog but certainly can't be bandied around as the be all and end all of recall trainning.
For me, witholding food from a creature who if the situation were reversed would never do the same is verging on cruelty. It demonstrates that the human condition of believing 'Homo Sapiens' are the most wonderful creatures on this planet. They are not, in fact with a few notable exceptions I believe most humans are ignorant and greedy and unscrupulous and not very nice at all, whereas all the dogs I've ever come across are loyal and loving and would sooner give up their life than see their fellow pack members hurt.
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Location: Essex UK
Joined: May 2006
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15-07-2011, 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by Dobermann
Its not a fad or fashion.
I dont understand how this leads to an anxious, confused, starved dog
What is wrong in feeding a dog by hand, the same total amount of food in a day as dumping it in a bowl and handing it over for nothing
I have a dog who is not food motivated at all and would quite happily be anorexic given the chance. So I know if I needed to sort her recall and used this method she would rather drop dead first.
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Location: Herefordshire, UK
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 9,634
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15-07-2011, 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Losos
Anyone who thinks they know everything about dogs is living in cloud cuckoo land and having a 'system' that is supposed to suit every dog of every breed and background is just taking a simplistic view and one which shows lack of understanding of these wonderful creatures.
Like every schoolboy who misbehaves shall get two strokes of the cane, it might work for the odd recalcitrant youth but for most children it doesn't work, and withdrawing food from a dog is much the same in it's approach.
Also as anyone who has read some of the amazing stories of dogs will know they can go for very long periods without food so it is not always the perfect trainning aid, recall is a very complicated matter and for the dog it has no relevance at all, if we could properly get into a dogs mind we would likely see that they have a number of priorities going on all the time (Just like humans) and excitment and play (with other dogs) is often high on the agenda, if he hasn't eaten that morning........so what, he's likely already worked out how to get food, either from his human companion or by chasing and killing a rabbit, so for now playing with another dog is what he wants to do.
As Helena and others have shown a flexible approach works wonders, acknowledging that each and every dog is different, has a different personality, makes for a much better trainning regime rather than just belting out one way which may have worked in the past with one dog but certainly can't be bandied around as the be all and end all of recall trainning.
For me, witholding food from a creature who if the situation were reversed would never do the same is verging on cruelty. It demonstrates that the human condition of believing 'Homo Sapiens' are the most wonderful creatures on this planet. They are not, in fact with a few notable exceptions I believe most humans are ignorant and greedy and unscrupulous and not very nice at all, whereas all the dogs I've ever come across are loyal and loving and would sooner give up their life than see their fellow pack members hurt.
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Location: Fife, UK
Joined: Oct 2010
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15-07-2011, 07:05 PM
really?! Well I don't think so (not based on this lol)
I agree that this method isnt crual so by default that is what you are classing me as verging on?
You have missed the point, its not about the dog not seeing the link that food has been withdrawn (cos it hasnt) its about the link between coming on call and GETTING FOOD.
I also suggested other methods as well btw and they are not specifically seperate.....
Also, the OP has had this dog a while now and has tried a lot and when it gets the point of an owner nearly being so despondant despite their efforts how does that help the dog.
On the previous thread there were a few 'techniques' mentioned and Tabitha chose to go with this one based on the fact that she knows her dog.
How is feeding by hand as a reward cruel compared to dumping it in a bowl at the end of the night and still having a dog that is a danger to himself and others?
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