I would be interested to hear why you feel an alpha role is the correct step to take, on what grounds is is productive.





As in most things in life, you start at the beginning, when said dog is a pup.

If as you say and these dogs are "naturally aggressive" no amount of training is going to stop them attacking, and one wonders the logic of any human owning one.


Perhaps you can explain for us then??

The only negative reinforcement I would use would be to remove myself from the situation.

I think time out can work, but you have to be so on the ball with your timing, and personally I like to remove myself for that time out, as by the time I have 1) stopped puppy from misbehaving, 2) picked up, or placed in another room, thats after I have caught said pup, said puppy has no idea why you are timing him out.

Much simpler to tangle yourself from the pup and leave the room, to allow him to settle down.

It depends on how it is used
My girl LOVES her crate
It is one of her fave tricks to run to her crate on cue
so much so that when a dog who had attacked her in the past charged up to my window and was barking and snarling - and Mia barking back - she couldnt respond to any other cues but being told (in a happy voice) 'bed' she spun round and raced into her crate and happily lay there and chilled
because it is associated with nice calm things she is calm and happy in there



I remember a couple I met in a party who came up to me all worried asking if the alpha roll was the only way to train their dog
their tiny 14 week old border terrier had been to a puppy class
the trainer told everyone to let their puppies offlead to interact with each other

Their puppy being a friendly puppy used to playing with other dogs had a sniff at a puppy and then tried to boing to play

The trainer said the pup was being dominant and needed to be corected

He grabbed the poor puppy and pinned him on his back

the owners said their lovely friendly puppy changed, was making noises they had never heard in their lives and fighting to get free

the 'trainer' held him down till he stopped wriggling

when he let the pup up he then puked all over the floor and spent the rest of the class cowering on the floor

Thankfuly as I was able to tell them that the trainer was an azz they quit the class and there were no lasting scars in the wee puppies mind

Mark Twain said. The day I did not laugh was wasted.
I guess my day is not wasted. Thank you.
You made my point.
Expected answer. I know question like that upsets you PC apple card .
Prager Hans

Yes I can explain.
Alpha roll should be bone in young age not as a punishment but as a relationship building. When you cuddle and play with little pup in the game you without force let him roll on his back and rub his belly. That type of situation then build trust and between a pup and you and helps the pup to recognize you as a pack member on higher hierarchy level then he/she is. This is stemming from behavior which we can observe in every day life of pups amongst them selves and older and thus usually dominant pack member. There is an inherited code of "ethics" amongst the dogs which dictates that dog which rolled over have shown submission and "proper respect " if I may and thus will not be harmed. This is necessary in the social structure of natural pack or the less strong or mature dogs and pups would get hurt and killed until there would be none left.
Thus it is important that the roll is initiated by sub-dominant dog and it is not forced.
If this is then mimick in socialization training it will give then to the pup understanding that the owner /handler is in higher position in the household"packing" order.
This needs to be constantly reinforced through Positive and Negative social interaction and training trough operant conditioning principles.

To this point:
If as you say and these dogs are "naturally aggressive" no amount of training is going to stop them attacking, and one wonders the logic of any human owning one.

Training is not here to remove natural aggression but it is here to modify the behavior to socially acceptable levels.
1. CONTROL:
through proper training and behavioral modification dog learns that the handler is in leadership position and will respect his commands even so it would like to do something else.
2. DIFFUSION:The improper behavior can be changed through reconditioning. Example: When the dog wants to attack another dog it is because his brain is hard wired like this: Strange dog-> territoriality-> adrenaline-> aggression ( little simplistic I know but in principle it is so. )
I will take such dog in area where I will encounter other dogs. When he sees another dog but before the above reaction can be completed i introduce positive stimulus like tug toy, ball , food and I myself act happy and use high pitched voice.
Then the reaction looks like this:
STRANGE DOG-> TOY (happy)-> "HAPPY" HORMONE is secreted instead Adrenaline and such -> DOG is then conditioned to PLAY BALL INSTEAD ATTACKING THE INVADER INTO HIS TERRITORY.
This is simple Pavlovian conditioning and needs to be started early and done many times (100X plus) and must be tone as often as possible consistently.
This must not be done in situation where the dog is already aggressive. If we missed the opportunity then we must correct the dog turn away and walk away.
Anyway. I hope this helps,..but there is more which can be done, but it is beyond the scope of this forum.
Prager Hans

yes I agree with you. But the dog also needs to learn what NO is and what are the consequences if the "NO" is not obeyed and where are the limits of this is allowed and this is not.
"NO" needs to be trained and need to be strong enough to override the territoriality of the dog and his aggressive response when it happens. That is where positive training and socialization fails.
I train dogs and do behavioral modification for 44 years and just about 100% of dogs with uncontrollable aggression are dogs with 0 or not sufficient training or mostly they are dogs which were trained with positive only approach which sounds so good but will in more dominant dogs create a monster which is totally not necessary if proper and I stress humane negative reinforcement is applied.
Uff:..forgive the runaway sentence
Prager Hans

First let me stress here that I am not advocating cruel and harsh methods, but to say that it always baffles me when someone says that Harsh methods create aggressive dogs. Plainly that is just not truth. If anything harsh methods create subdued, overly submissive, scared dogs which are afraid to display any aggression( and other behaviors) what so ever in fear of being treated harshly . That said Not all negative reinforcement is harsh. And let me tell you> I have been attacked during training by harsh dogs and in that case I am harsh right back.
Being "harsh" literally saved my life and eventually many dogs from euthanasia. Some may say that PTS such dog is better then necessarily and humanly applied +/- method. And I would like to say that I like dogs I do not want them to be killed because someone did not train them properly.
Prager Hans

You do realise that the whole dominant/hierarchy thing has been blown out of the water by every single decent dog trainer/behaviourist out there don't you? Even the bloke who first coined the term Alpha has admitted his theory is a load of b*llocks!

The whole dominant thing is seriously past it's use by date, the most productive use of your time would be to do some modern day dog behaviour reading tbh.

Yes there are many opinions some are right and some are wrong. Dogs are not cats. You can not have equal parallel relationship with a dog. That theory also had been also "blown out of the water". Dogs live in packs which have hierarchy. Dominant female and dominant male and then the ladder goes down . Are you actually saying that this is not the truth?
Prager Hans

I guess what is interesting is that you are indirectly saying that trainers who do not subscribe to this theory are not decent. That is what people like you do . Instead of saying why it is not truth and have creative and interesting discussion they just go and make ad hominem attacks.

Prager Hans
\ No, there is no Hierarchy and alpha roll. What a crack!!!!!
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