Eureka!! Have been alternating between a kumfi fleecy harness, a £1.50 e-bay bargain , and a dogmatic and we're all happy. The halti is still my pocket when I take them out and want a back-up if needed later in the walk that's not necessary immediately, it's a handy jeans pocket size and fits both of the boys so is still super handy. Think the combination of them means that they don't get used to how to abuse them, Chester is slowly teaching Griffin how to hook a paw over the front of the flamingo we sometimes use to get it off though, proof it nothing else that nothing is smart puppy proof!! Not sure why you would resort to negative training methods when positive ones work so effectively, is that not a reflection more on the trainer's abilities as opposed to the dog being trained most of the time. Just IMO obviously.

This is my problem with headcollars.

Comparison of dogs’ reactions to four different head collars

Study findings below:



“The responses of 12 dogs to four different head collars were compared in a crossover design over four 10 min sessions each spaced 2 weeks apart.

Group 1

included pawing, pawing nose, biting/pawing leash, opening mouth, rubbing face, and shaking head.



Group 2

included rearing up, balking, rushing forward, and rolling on ground.

No statistical difference was observed between dogs’ reactions to the head collar types.

Based on this study, there does not appear to be an increased acceptance of one head collar type over another.

There were no long term follow ups so long term consequences are unknown.”



Ref:

Comparison of dogs’ reactions to four different head collars, Applied Animal Behaviour Science Volume 79, Issue 1, 20 September 2002, Pages 53-61

L. I. Haug, B. V. Beavera and M. T. Longneckerb

Adam

Evening,

I've spent some time reading various posts on similar subjects and have noticed a trend. Head collars seem to be very acceptable and widely recommended, albeit carelessly and without any real background of the dog they're going on and being up front with the associated dangers of these collars. A second observation is very anti prong collar based on little more than looks and opinion, and very anti shock collar for a variety of reasons. Before you decide on the headcollar, serieously review the available options or you could be making a terrible mistake.

Debate being debate and advice being advice, it appears there's a very narrow minded view of the correct equipment being recommended or used for the correct behavior or traits requiring modification. That's disappointing, and very irresponsible. There are plenty of dangers and hazards using headcollars, more cons than pros for most cases, yet a complete dismissal of alternatives such as prong collars which have more pedigree and history than fad collars and harnesses requiring constant redesign.

I more than most appreciate what an emotive subject this can be, however if an alternative exists that is safe, trustworthy, calming, can help achieve the desired results and is potentially only temporary then why is it such a taboo subject? Perhaps it's simply a lack of information and a perpetuation of myths and emotive hear say? Shame on those who feel the need to critisise a handlers options and belittle them for their choice when there's no shame for selecting the correct equipment for the situation at hand.

My advice is not to ask armchair trainers for remote internet advice and visit a competent trainer who has experience of the widest variety of situations and equipment and ask them to evaluate the training needs. If they can't present results that you can sustain or improve after they've left you and your dog alone I'd say change trainers, and if they recommend a particular collar, even if the most vocal in here disapprove, pay no attention to the distractors and stick to your reigeme.

regards,

Austin

So what are the 'dangers and hazards' of headcollars?

I dont think prong collars and shock collars (not sure if the mentioning of them comes under the partial ban, sorry if it does) can even be compared to headcollars (in general). You sound like a prong and shock collar user. JMO.

There are a lot of great trainers on here, and lots of people with tons of experience, so I dont think it is fair to say people should ignore them over professional trainers, their opinions should IMO be at least thought about.

Hello Lozzibear,

Telephone a responsible trainer, best describe your issue and see if they can advise the most suitable way forward over the phone. Now apply that same process to an internet message board. It may have the most competent trainers in the world, but their advice would be innefective at best without a proper evaluation.

One of my points being the emotive labelling of prong collars. You've done one of the common problems facing equipment selection, lumped prong collars and shock collars together in the same sentence. The two are so vastly different they're incomparable. One is a mechanical option requiring the handler to be in direct contact with the dog to judge tension, reaction and drive, the other is a remote device that gives electric shocks. No wonder owners get confused and we see statements like "prong collars, oh, they're like those shock collars, evil things".

The dangers and hazards of head collars are seen all too often. For example, the strain on the neck if the dog lunges, the anxiety of going for a walk, the physical damage to the snout, the stress shown in body language when on a walk, the lack of training oportunities using a head collar, pawing at the head collar, and of course money wasted through incorrect selection of equipment. A short and petty list I know, but worth considering non the less.

Just assume I use a prong collar, the dog isn't in pain, isn't under stress, training is reinforced and as a handler I finally gain control over a previously difficult dog. Does that make me evil? Does that make me stupid and an inferior dog owner? Does that give uninformed and ignorant well wishers the right to critisise my choice if it's improving the quality of mine and my dogs time together? Perhaps the detractors need a little more information and education to draw a balanced conclusion.

regards,

Austin

Slavery has a longer pedigree and history than equality, something having been around a long time doesn't necessarily make it a good thing.
I do agree with you that headcollars, as with any item, need to be introduced and used correctly but I would too be interested in knowing all these cons. Your current list is very much based on a headcollar that has not been introduced correctly - I have used a headcollar on multiple dogs and not one has received a neck injury or any damage to the snout, they are excited to walk rather than anxious, they are not stressed by it and they do not paw at it. I, too, have a dog that isn't in pain, isn't under stress, training is reinforced (in the chase of my prey drive dog, she cannot pull to chase the animal, so that action is not reinforced, in my reactive dog, we can easy remove ourselves from the situation without pain or force so he does not associate meeting a dog with negative results) and as a handler I have control over my dogs.

I think it's funny that you say people cannot suggest a fix on the internet yet there you are, trying to "sell" the prong collar. If you issue was merely with the fact that, yes, we're not all trainers and we haven't seen this dog, why the need to bring up an alternative product yourself?

I feel I should respond to this because it's simply not accurate.


1 - the dog cannot lunge when wearing a correctly fitted headcollar - that is the whole point of using one. You just shorten the lead and the dog physically cannot lunge.

2 - a headcollar enables training. If like me someone has a highly fearful-aggressive, reactive dog who is so alert and nervous that they're too busy lunging and leaping to train, then a head collar helps keep them calm and enables the owner to reward for calm behaviour.

3 - er, what anxious behaviour when on a walk?? My dog trots along by my side, tail wagging, head high, just like he does on a 'normal' collar. The only difference is we are both SAFE because he cannot lunge and leap and rip the lead out of my hands.

4 - as for your claim of wasting money, I use a Dogmatic headcollar. Best £28 I have probably ever spent in my life!

5 - our dog trainer is a Police dog handler and trainer. She has told me categorically to use the Dogmatic until we have trained my dog to be calm in the face of the multiple 'triggers' that upset him and make him go beserk.


Headcollars enable millions of people to walk their dogs safely and calmly. Sure, it's vital to have a properly fitting one and one that is comfortable for the dog. But your blanket statements are frankly inaccurate.

true...............................

Please start a new thread to discuss prong collars. You are welcome to post a link to it, then anyone who would like to continue the discussion can do so there.

For anyone who would like to discuss headcollars.........

KRUSEWALKER:


Yes, I agree - and I also agree that of course there's no point to using a short lead or tight lead in this situation. When using the Dogmatic I walk Dexter on a nice loose lead - unless we are walking past another dog and I can see the warning signals. Then at this point I will shorten the lead to prevent him lunging.

I do agree this is 'managing' the problem but to be honest, at this moment in time, that's a massive help.

During our training sessions Dexter is never on the headcollar - only on a normal collar and lead and this is where the trainer is helping me teach Dexter that it's fine to be around other dogs/people carrying things/motorbikes/etc and that he won't be harmed.