Look Patch, I don't want to fall out with you. Just accept that I ... and many others on this thread ... LIKE Cesar and his methods. This is contrary to your view ... and many others on this thread. Let's just leave it at that ... that us Cesar fans are ENTITLED to our views.

If and when we do rescue another dog, I will let you know how things pan out. Fingers crossed !!

You haven't answered my point BTW about the german shorthaired pointer I had as a rescue ... whose father, grandparents, great grandparents and great great grandparents were various levels of champions, including at least 2 Show Champions. If you are interested, I can post the breeding lines and championship details on here. It is quite some time ago, so I don't see why I shouldn't. They don't mean anything to me, as I am not into showing, but to an expert like yourself, you will be able to explain them to me if I say anything wrong.

I don`t care if the dog was the ultimate on the planet, a rescue dog should not be bred from, end of.
If the dog was so spectacular, why did that dog end up in rescue ?
Why did the breeder not take the dog back ?

One of mine went into rescue with a great working pedigree, and I was approached to use him for stud by someone telling me how glorious he looks yadda yadda - did`nt seem to matter apparently that he has genetic deafness... and even if he had`nt and if he had been a fabulous example of his breed in every way, he came from a rescue therefore was not available to breed from and nor should any rescue dog be, full stop.


Edited to add, was it you who said this below of your rescued Pointer that you bred from :


"I used to have a so-called "pedigree" German Shorthaired Pointer. She was a Wittekind - which was the best line you could have then for GSP's apparently. I was appalled to see from her pedigree that Wittekind Gregory was her father but also appeared several times on both the dam and sire's line. Can't remember the intimate details, but it was then that I decided this was WRONG"

And was this about Hal, your crossbreed whom you also bred from ?

"I have a 75% wolf cross sibe, and the result is an 8 year old "dog" who has never had to go to the vet in those 8 years for anything other than his vaccinations (which he no longer has)"

Patch said: "If the dog was so spectacular, why did that dog end up in rescue ?
Why did the breeder not take the dog back ?"



There you go yet again, aggressively questioning me !! I bet the Spanish Inquisition was easier than Dogsey!! I cannot remember why the dog ended up in rescue, but rescue it did end up in. That is clearly rubbish to say you cannot breed from a rescue when the dog has a pedigree with several show champions in her lines ... and you know it ! Come on Patch, I don't want to fall out with you, just admit you are wrong and apologise?

The various champions in Lizzie's lines were Wittekind Gregory, who was a JW Champion and a Show Champion, not sure what JW means. Then we have Wittekind Edelstein, a female, another show champion, who was great grandmother of Lizzies dam. Appeline Chough, another Show Champion, who was Lizzie's great great grandfather, Appeline Juniper was Lizzie's Great Grandmother, a famous GSP apparently. She has 2.C.C written after her name, I have no idea what that means.

Yup, that was me who said that about Lizzie's pedigree. I WAS and AM appalled that on the sire's side of her pedigree, Lizzie's great grandfather was Wittekind Gregory, being the father of Wittekind Hannibal, but the bitch who was bred to Wittekind Hannibal, Hedda of Wittekind, was daughter of Wittekind Gregory! This is appalling! To make matters worse, Wittekind Gregory was also great grandfather to Lizzie's mother as well, so on both sides as it were of her pedigree, Wittekind Gregory appears as being the great grandfather. I haven't explained this at all well, because it bamboozles me to bits, but IMO this is dreadful. At the time, naive as I was (late 70's, early 80's from memory), I accepted what I was told that this was normal in pedigree dogs. No wonder there are over 2,000 known genetic diseases in pedigrees. I don't know whether such close breeding goes on in pedigrees today, but if it does, then count me out ... I shall stick with my good old crossbreeds !! :smt002 :smt002

Now I shall back off before the Sword of Damocles really does descend upon my head !! We have gone terribly off thread here, apologies to everyone for that.

so was Hal a wolf x then???????

Ok a serious Question now? is it "unfair" to let a dog /wolf live in a certain way for 8 years then TOTALLY change the rules of its life?
If the dog isnt "hurting" anyone, just abit set in its ways?is it fair to suddenly turn its life upside down just to make your own life easier?

For Example:

My bitch Nellie Developed a habit of Barking in the ring, she had always been Gobby at home but id never stopped it, then she got abit gobby in training but again i never stopped it, then by the time she was around 5, She was being gobby (by this i mean Singing & barking with Excitement) whilst Competing, Of course by the time that happened id let her be gobby in other aspects of her life for 5 years, although i tryed a few things to shut her up i felt it was unfair to ask her to now completly change her personality & shut up because i now wanted her too. As to get her to be quiet id have had to shut her up in all aspects of her life. I didnt feel it was fair to turn her life upside down, it wasnt hurting anyone but me, so i retired her.

Now no doubt CM may have got her to shut up, but its just not fair to ask that if you have caused it? im not prepared to put my dogs through unfairness to solve a problem i have allowed to develop.

no matter how many champions are in a dog's lines, genetic ilnesses can still manifest, let alone in a dog with a considerable amount of line/in-breeding behind her.. so why preach to people that it is categorically wrong, having bred the dog without knowing its history, regardless? if you didn't know why she was in rescue, how can you have known her history? this is just why i think it was inadvisable to breed from her..

much as i'm not convinced with regard to many of CM's methods, i'm with him on his pro-neuter stance for rescue dogs.

It means 2 CC's, or challenge certificates. You need 3 to become a champion.

NOOOOOO !! Which is why I ignored Patch's remark ! God, I wish !! I would have sung it from the rooftops !

No mishflynn, I don't consider it unfair. As CM says, and I personally think he is right, dogs live in the here and now.

It was a nice thing you did for Nellie, retiring her rather than put her through what you perceived as being stressful for her. You blamed yourself for having let this situation occur in the first place. Fair do's, and big of you to blame yourself. However, if I may be presumptuous enough to put on Cesar's hat for a moment, he would say "don't worry, don't live in the past, you have recognised that you have let the dog get away with this particular behaviour, so now let's get on and solve the problem".

I think what I like so much about Cesar is that he doesn't anthropomorphise dogs, he treats them as DOGS, not extensions of the human beings who own the dogs. Dogs, according to him, live for the moment, from day to day (which is not to say that they don't come with baggage and have issues when they have been abused and traumatised). So therefore, IMO, you could have trained Nellie to be less gobby and more respectful, and I don't think it would have turned her life upside down at all. As her pack leader, she would have accepted that this was now what was required of her, and as an intelligent dog, would have learned very quickly. Using his calm assertive energy ... no prongs, no electric collars ... you would have very quickly been able to gently but firmly rehabilitate her into being less gobby.

Dogs don't have a sense of fairness in the context you are talking about, they just view us, their pack leaders, as being weak if we allow them to be gobby ... or dominant, as Cesar would describe it. I had a gobby dog too, and I think it is a very good description of Hal ! He was extremely gobby, and a challenge from the moment we brought him into our home until the day he died, God bless him.

I knew Lizzie's history ... I had her pedigree !! it didn't look at all the thing to me, but I was assured that close breeding was fine. I am talking about almost 30 years ago, long before the days of computers, genetic testing, hip scoring, with pedigree dogs, especially ones of such supposedly good breeding, it was the norm to breed from a respected pedigree. I really cannot remember the circumstances, but from memory the local GSP society got in touch with me through the rescue people and asked me if I would consider putting Lizzie to Boris, who apparently was a Wittekind with good lines. I can't remember the details, and am not going to guess, but I do remember questioning the lines in Lizzie's breeding and being assured that this was quite usual. I hope to goodness it isn't usual now, because I for one would certainly never breed from a dog whose great grandfather was the same father of her father and mother, and then again the same father of her mother's father. It's horrible.

I think it was extremely inadvisable to breed from her. But that is with the knowledge of hindsight. It was, apparently, perfectly acceptable in those days for pedigrees to have these very close lines. I just hope to goodness it isn't acceptable nowadays.

Ah, then this was`nt about Hal then but another hybrid you owned and bred from at the same time ? [ I have removed the breed names as a diplomacy measure ]

"Our boy is not a [ breed name ], he is a husky crossed timber wolf. He was mated with a, [breed name ], (or [ breed name ], as they were called then) bitch, and the girl who owned the bitch sold the pups as [ breed name ] because she was hardly likely to say what they really were"

Oh and you have said that you would health test a rescue before breeding and yet you have bred without doing so

"I am going to get my boy hip scored before he mates again"