You'd be welcome.:smt001

I've kept out of the very interesting discussion between Border Dawn, collie mad etc. But hear hear regarding your last paragraph, I quite agree !

I didn't say they were common I said that they happened and I have spoken to what little family I have and they remember the problems in our area too. I just don't think it's that much worse now it's just that we are more aware of it happening due to things like the internet and they way the media report it. If a dog attacked someone 300 miles away 30 years ago unles it was a really bad attack you would be unlikely to hear about it, now it would be headline news. It's not a new thing any more than the whole yob culture is new it's just that now it is a vote earner and that makes politicians and the media react.

trouble is you will never know for sure because they were allowed out to roam freely. As for being a show dog I don't think that makes a difference, doesn't mean that the dog wouldn't bite:smt102

No but then we had a lot of canal and there were several spots that they used, saw far too many bags with dead puppies in. yes I am sure it still goes on but I would like to think that people use more humane methods these days. One thing that does seem to have changed is people are more likely to have their dogs neutered than they were back then.

I don't think they are treated that differently, I still remember dogs being treated like children when I was a child so that in itself isn't new. Some people have always believed that their dogs understand every word they say, I have conversations with mine all the time although I know they have no clue what I am on about. The problem is that these days more people are living alone (according the government) and some of these will only have their pets for company so it is inevitible that they will humanise them more. You also have to consider how many poorly bred dogs are out there, that alone would exagerate the problem, I have one very poorly bred dog here but the only person he has ever bitten is me and only due to his collie instincts and through excitement

Most of the dogs on his show are suffering from lack of exercise and mental stimulation. It has already been shown with at least one dog that there was a medical problem causing it's behaviour but he doesn't bother to check things like that first does he?:smt102 How many more dogs on his show could be helped further with a trip to the vet before he gets his hands on them?

I like to think that I am calm and confident with my dogs, I do try to be and I have no problems with their behaviour but I learned that as a child growing up from the people around me who had dogs so this again is not new. You only hear about the owners and dogs that have problems, there are millions more that don't.

No, the dog should be homed with someone who understands and accepts that neutering of rescue dogs is for good reason, one of which is to ensure an adopter would never consider something so utterly heinous as breeding from a rescue dog

You would listen you say - then you would ignore every word and dish out CM methods on the dog regardless of if a rescue says absolutely not to do so, so saying you would listen to them is rather pointless is`nt it ?

Its everything to do with it.

Sadly it is coming across as arrogance and `know it all`, everything you have said indicates that you will do things your way no matter what the highly experienced assessors of a rescue dog would tell you, you think you know better than all the rescues who have neuter policies, and you think its ok to consider breeding from a rescue dog.

It would help then if you listened to everyone who has the experience that you don`t have, that`s how to learn, not by sticking fingers in ears with an attitude of you know best and everyone else wrong.

Are cats wolves as well now

The point about dog attacks being more common today, I think is down to several things IMO.
Where I grew up if a dog bit or nipped you,maybe a few people would know but people didn't care( I am not talking about someone being badly mauled), I can think of several known biters in the village I grew up in, people just avoided them, and if they did nail you, you should of been more careful. If I had gone home to my parents and said so and so's dog bit me, my parents first reaction would of been" what did you do to the dog???"
People seem to have forgotten that though we live with animals with big teeth, claws and muscles, and can and will bite if pushed.Dogs can't yell and shout and push someone away, they only have several reactions, freeze, flight or fight, and I think any dog if pushed to the limit will bite. People tend to view them as big fluffy mobile teddy bears now, they are not, they need respect, why should a dog respect you if you can't respect it.

People are also too busy to take full responsibility for their dogs too, my grandparents always kept large breeds,and owned several rotties while I was growing up. They never had a problem with them, ever, we were taught as visiting grandkids to give the dogs respect, and we did, and my Nan had 11 grandchildren and I always felt comfortable with them. My grandparents always taught their dogs manners, not through fear or force, but respect, and giving the dogs boundaries. People just don't seem to bother teaching their dogs to behave they will go to a few training puppy classes and that is it, and then think the dog is set up for life. I think dogs need constant, consistence care. My parents taught all our dogs the same, and I have too,obviously training methods have changed, as each dog is different, but consistency and respect are the key. My children have been taught to respect our dogs and anyone elses. I do believe if kids are taught to respect dogs, a lot of dog bites could be avoided.

I also think that bad breeding is at fault too, Dogs do seem more unbalanced than when I was younger, a lot of the dogs from my childhood were bred for a reason, good working stock bred to good working stock etc. But, people seem to breed this to that with no thought of what the dog is going to turn out like, and then sold onto someone who is not equipped to cope with the resulting adult dog.

Time is a big issue, to raise a confident, steady, adjusted dog takes loads of time and effort, you get back what you put into a dog my Dad has always said, and I totally agree. I think loads of people can't be bothered once that cute puppy gets to the loopy juvenille stage, which I feel is the hardest stage (going through it with one of mine now , and I have noticed a grey hair today ).


Lastly complete morons who get a dog to look hard teach a precious puppy to fight and be aggressive, and then get a kick out of watching attack another dog or get so wound up it could lash out at a person because it is soo tormented.


Sorry have gone completely off topic.

Patch: you said:

"Sadly it is coming across as arrogance and `know it all`, everything you have said indicates that you will do things your way no matter what the highly experienced assessors of a rescue dog would tell you, you think you know better than all the rescues who have neuter policies, and you think its ok to consider breeding from a rescue dog".

Patch ... don't you realise you are EXACTLY what you are accusing me of !! Arrogant !! You are telling me that it is heinous to breed from a rescue dog. I am sorry to be so blunt, but frankly this really is the most utter rubbish I have ever heard !!

I will give you an example of this. Way back when, I rescued a bitch German Shorthaired Pointer, a lovely dog. She was a Wittekind, which if you know about GSPs, then you would know that is even nowadays a highly respected line. Her father was Wittekind Gregory, which although meant absolutely nothing to me because I wasn't into, and am not now, the whole pedigree/show dog scene, but he was some sort of Champion and his pups were highly sort after. I still have her pedigree if you are interested in knowing more.

So are you telling me that I shouldn't have bred from Lizzie? Too bad, because I did. She was put to another Wittekind called Boris, bore a healthy litter of 12 gorgeous little GSPs, who sold well and easily and that was that.

How can this in any way have been heinous?

Frankly, YOUR arrogance knows no bounds ! In the past you rightly castigated me for my rather assertive posts, we apologised, kissed and made up, but now you are doing exactly the same thing to me. I don't care, it doesn't bother me one jot or iota, but I am just pointing out how assertive and frankly unfriendly that you are being.

You do not know me, you have no idea what my experience is with dogs, where I have gained my knowledge or anything about me. Like everybody on a public forum like this one, we all have to be very careful to maintain our privacy. Dog rustling is unfortunately extremely common in this area ... Hal's son, Woody, was stolen from the garden of his owners, but luckily he managed to escape from where he had been taken, and returned home (with a displaced hip, in agony, poor dog ).

So please don't judge me,or put words into my mouth. I NEVER said I would ignore all the advice given to me by a rescue centre. You really must learn not to go putting words into people's minds, Patch.

Of course, I agree we dont hear about all the problem dogs out there, and the normal ones will never get a mention. However, if you take the severity of the attacks that are regularly occuring across the world today, Im sure you will agree they are incredibly more horrific than they were many years ago, and I have no doubt in thinking if they were as bad years ago, something far more harsh and immediate would of been done to stop it!

I dont think we will agree Colliemad, I see CM as somebody who treats dogs as dogs and gets quick results with no evidence that anyone can produce to say his tecniques do any harm to the dogs, I certainly cant see it either. I accept people prefer other methods and good luck to them, if thats their preferred choice, we all do as we see fit and make choices that will always differ from others.

Dawn the voice of reason
I completely agree with that statement Dawn.

I now truely despair! Your right in absolutely everything you say and of course so long as those pups sold easily then it was fine. If you had no interest in showing so how did you know if she was a good example to bred from - just because she had a pedigree - you dont actually know what the sire was a champion in! What about the stub you bred her to? BYB springs to mind.

I have 6 rescue dogs what a damn shame they are all done - just think of the pups I could be flogging off now! borzuki's must be worth a fortune!

Why dont you go and talk to the rescues who are putting dogs to sleep every single day because of people who just pick up a dog from a pound because the pups will be pretty and sell easily. Go watch them stick the needle in and then come back and tell me you've bred from yet another rescue dog you've managed to find. How anyone can call someone arrogant and that its rubbish to say rescue's should not be bred from is beyond my comprehension.

Im done with this thread its just a waste of time even trying to converse with you as you say dont care what anyone else thinks anyway.

Do I have to justify every single thing I ever say on this forum? Can't anyone just accept the fact that I had, unbeknown to myself until someone told me, that I had a champion dog in the making? I don't mind, but it must be hellishly boring for everyone! I was TOLD she was such a fab example, I had absolutely no idea and neither did I care. I am not into the show scene at all. If you don't believe me, google German Shorthaired Pointers Wittekind and I am sure you will get up plenty of info. I couldn't care less what Lizzie was, she was a lovely dog. I was just making the point to Patch that just because a dog is a rescue, it does not mean that it should not be bred from !!

Please don't let's argue, I am really fed up of having to justify myself every time I say something. I am perfectly entitled to my opinion ... that I personally would not wish to castrate the male dog I MAY be rescuing, nor would I follow a particular training regieme were I asked or told to, unless it was one I believed in, such as Cesar Millan's calm assertive energy. The dog I HOPE to get is the same type as Hal, and as CM's methods worked so well on him, I would be an idiot not to at least try Cesar's way first. If it does not work, then I will come on here and ask for advice ... if I may please, without getting my head bitten off every 2 seconds ?

I honestly don't think that people properly read my replies. I have said on more than one occasion that rescue centres have to cater for Jo Public, not someone with 40 years experience of dogs. Their insistence that a contract be signed to say you will castrate or spay is as a rule a good idea for, say, someone who has no or only limited experience of owning a dog. But I have been trying to make the point that I am an experienced dog owner, and I would NOT agree to sign a contract to castrate the dog I chose to adopt, so therefore would not adopt that dog and he would continue to be homless. I would expect the rescue centre, through interview and demonstration, to accept that I was a responsible dog owner, would carry out all necessary veterinary, pedigree etc. etc. checks necessary before breeding from that dog ... WERE I TO WISH TO (key point, hence the caps). If the dog for whatever reason was not up to scratch, then of course it would not be bred from. I do not need to put the dog through an unnecessary and potentially dangerous medical procedure (all anaesthetics are a risk) to ensure that he would never get the opportunity to mate.

Is this now clear? I do NOT agree with the indiscriminate breeding of dogs, whether they be rescues or not.

I just cannot believe how some of you guys put words and actions into people's mouths !! It is absolutely extraordinary, and even I (as thick skinned as I am) and beginning to feel I am not welcome on here just because I hold views different from some other contributors to this thread. I am really enjoying this discussion, but I will not put up with personal attacks against myself ... or words or actions put into my mouth that are just not true.

Can we please all kiss, make up and agree to differ and get back to the fascinating subject of CM? I am dying to read all the posts between BorderDawn, colliemad etc. regarding dogs when we were young and dogs now, but I keep getting side-tracked !!

:smt008