Great post wilbar and I definatley agree with the last part. Out of interest, how did they measure the hormone levels etc at the time in the studies?

I tend not to get involved in pro or anti posts re items such as electric collars as I find it is generally pointless as, like hunting, abortion, raw feeding, most people place their feet in one camp or another and really should just agree to disagree.

Howefer skimming through this thread I have noticed something which has gone uncommented on (unless I missed it) which is quite possible

If an individual is asserting that the signs of stress are masked by other behaviours, how has that individual identified that stress is present, if it is not visible?

You can only manage something if you can measure it, so if the individual could not measure it with the naked eye eg by position of ears, tail, head, speed of movement, licking of lips, panting etc etc then it had to have been measured in another way to demonstrate the a) symptoms of stress are present eg by chemical changes in blood, heart rate etc and b) further more a causal link needs to be established.

If one or both of the above are absent, the orginal argument is based on flawed logic............... and rather on the biased opinion of one who speaks not from a clinical point of view but that of a supporter of one outlook.

Just my personal view.........

Personally I think there are different types of stress or anticipation or whatever you want to call it. My feeling of anticipation while waiting to see the dentist is absolutely NOTHING like the feeling of anticipation I had on the morning of my wedding for example. I imagine it's the same for dogs, there's a huge difference between the anticipation of pain/discomfort/fear and the anticipation of something nice.

I used to take Rupert who is clicker trained to a class where most people used punishment based methods. The difference in the attitude of the dogs trained with punishment and the dogs trained with reward based methods was HUGE. It's hard to explain exactly what the difference was but it was very noticeable.

Think thats KW's point, the argument was flawed from the start.

i said that a while back and krusse came down on me for it

precisely!

its the lack of logic on several fronts that is evident.

would you care to elaborate, quoting the post you are referring to?????

Cortisol levels can be measured in blood but it has a natural circadian rhythm so tests have to be done at various times of the day (or morning, which I think is when levels are lower.) I think that cortisol can also be measured in saliva.

As for serotonin, the studies I know of measured a precursor of serotonin in cerebral spinal fluid.

The reward pathways in the brain were studied mainly through experiments on animals unfortunately, through electrodes in the brain, usually cats or rats.

Although I do agree to an extent about not keeping this thread living I think it has done some really good things
I have had talks with Adam in the past and I thought he understood about positive training and I was confused as to why he needed to have an e - collar in his toolbox - let alone to recomend one so often
Having seen his videos although I am saddend I am no longer confused
Like most punishment trainers he just cannot read dogs well enough to see the stress he is putting them under, and he seems to not have the understanding of positive methods to use them correctly

I also hope it has been enough for any people sitting on the fence to be able to compair and contrast and realise that not all trainers are created the same and possibly the little unhappy nervouse dog is not how they want t heir dogs to live their lives

MF agrees with BF