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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,724
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19-02-2008, 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher 
if you want to adopt this male dog, you must contractually agree to chop his bits off, willy nilly (no pun intended
). Unless there was a medical reason for this, or at least a behavioural issue so severe that castration was the only option, then I would not agree to castrate the dog, and the dog would therefore remain homeless.I merely dislike being told by a breeder or a rescue centre that I MUST chop bits off my future dog whether or not it is necessary, and I MUST follow, or not follow, a particular training regieme. Now, no breeding without health checks is of course an excellent clause to have in a contract, and if there is a fault in the dog, such as poor hips, soft ear, whatever is considered a fault for that breed, then yes, no breeding should be contracted upon. I'm not totally unreasonable !!
But a poor rescued dog has no choice, he has to go with the flow !)
IF I eventually take on this or any other rescue, or any dog at all for that matter, I may or may not breed from him. He would have to have all the usual health checks - hips, eyes, etc. etc. and a host of other considerations made etc.
However, this is a far cry from slavishly following what they say is right for the dog in terms of castration and training methods.
I would just say that I think its the rescue centres who have no choice but to chop their bits off because of people who hold the same view as you - that they might or might not use the dog to breed from!
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Location: uk
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 564
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19-02-2008, 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
colliemad said:
These days if a rottie walked down the street and farted there would be a swat team out to shoot it cos it was acting aggressively
I wasn't seriously trying to be funny, I just get frustrated about stuff like that
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Location: uk
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19-02-2008, 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn
Speak to your families, ask them about how many packs of dogs went out attacking people and children. Dogs were treated like dogs (I dont mean chucked out each day) they were not human baby extensions. I am around the same age as you, my parents are always commenting on how dogs never behaved like they do now. My grandmother had an Airedale and a Bull terrier (English) they used to be on the prowl all the time, they never attacked people, they never got all these illnesses we see now, they were fed on left overs and bread, but lived into their teens without any difficulty. Even the stray dog problem was nothing like it is now, even with all the random breeding that must of gone on.
Proof is everywhere Colliemad. A search on any and every search engine will fill your screen with attacks all across the world. Its not all "hype" its the truth, whether stories are exaggerated or not, the fact remains, the dogs attack.
Lots of us on here talk about our dogs like they are people but how many do you think actually treat them as such? I know I don't but I have adapted to train each dog as they are all different. I have decided though that I am going to use swear words instead of the usual obedience commands on the next one just to prove to people that the words don't actually matter to the dog one bit..... :smt077 As for your grandparents dogs how do they know that they never bit anyone? If they were roaming loose and nobody knew who they belonged to how can you be certain?:smt102 The owners of the dog that was picked up had no clue what it had (allegedly) done and kept letting it out same as ever:smt102 I thought we were talking about attacks in this country not in others? 30 years ago you wouldn't have heard about such things and nobody in this country would really have cared if a person was killed or injured by a dog in another part of the world. The fact is dawn that ANY dog could attack, yours mine or anyones on this forum no matter how much training has gone into them. They are animals and ultimately their behaviour is based on instinct not training. This is why I am so careful who I allow mine to mix with, it's not because I don't trust them it's because I don't trust people to know how to deal with them, far too many still think that dogs should put up with anything you do to them which is something that I will never understand or agree with
The random breeding problem was solved around by us by people dumping the new born pups in the canal, some were dumped at a few weeks of age, I ended up with 2 pitbulls this way when they were part of a litter of 4 that were chucked in.
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Location: uk
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19-02-2008, 03:11 PM
http://www.stopdogattacks.com/dogbit...ukdogbitestats
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Location: USA/UK
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,421
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19-02-2008, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
Hi Moonstone: thanks for your nice remarks about Hal,
much appreciated! I had forgotten that you own similar guys to Hal ... they sound immaculately well behaved compared to him, God rest his naughty soul !! We are talking about wolves, because it is extremely relevant to any thread about CM. He treats dogs as pack animals, as wolves, because that is what they are, domesticated wolves. His rehabilitation methods are based around the pack. Were you at the Northern Inuit meet in Essex last year when Shaun Ellis, the Wolf Man, came to lecture us? It was absolutely fascinating. Those two together would be "awesome" to use one of CM's less attractive phrases!
And yes, I know he is an advocate of castration, and i am surprised at him - it's one of the few things I don't like about him.
I know of an alpha female who "rolls" dogs over ... her owners are in the process of trying to stop her using calm assertive energy
Gnasher- From the pics I have seen of Hal he was a stunner, so I meant what I said.
I have just peed my knickers to hear someone describe Mack as immacutely behaved
He is a walking mess of hormones at the moment, driving me bonkers But, He is well behaved wheh off lead with other dogs and though he is all hormonal at the moment does walk nicely(most of the time) when on lead. But, I have been firm but fair with him from the word go, and I have put hours and hours into his training. If I hadn't he would be an absolute nightmare
I missed the Essex show, I had only just got Mack then.
I do admire Shaun Ellis, watched him on tv and read his book, and find his work with wolves interesting, especially his research into how to stop wolf packs attacking farmers livestock. I do think the wolf is a much maligned creature, and anything to help wolves and people co exist together is good. BUT,remember Shauns packs are captive wolves which do act different to wild wolves, there social etiquettes are different.And the dominance theory was written from a short study of captive wolves, not wild wolves.
I believe if you want to know how dogs really relate to their surroundings and packs, look at the social structures of wild dogs/ village dogs that live on the outskirts of villages in some parts of the world. This is the dog language we should learn . I would recommend a book by Raymond Coppinger,"Dogs the new understanding of canine Origin, Behaviour and Evolution." It sounds dull, but I swear it is a great read.Sorry don't want to sound preachy, but it is a great book, and I really think you would enjoy it.
I do believe in neutering of pets, as there are too many puppies being born, who are never going to get a good home.I have no problem with ethical breeders who health test and really care for the dogs. But, too many buy a dog think it is cute and just breed without thinking of the bigger picture , sorry going off topic.
The only thing I really like about Cesar Milan is the one thing you hate I do think we interfere with our dogs too much and get too precious about them, and that leads to not being well socialised and causing loads of problems.My two play as I have said with a huge variety of dogs of different sizes, some are more laidback than others, but they never come to blows. Part of the reason I think is because we let them get on with it, but if one did over step the mark, they are all well trained enough to back off if told. But, we never have to as one of the more mature dogs usually gives a look and an air snap if it is really bad, and it is all over. What I am trying to say badly, is I feel sorry for dogs that never get to be a dog and just play in a pack, as a calmer older dog can work miracles on a loony hormonal goofball
So I understand "the power of the pack ", but I will never agree to things such as alpha rolling, pining it isn't for me.I apologise if I have come across as preachy
didn't mean too.
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Location: East Midlands, UK
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19-02-2008, 06:14 PM
Shaun Ellis lived with wild wolves in the States as well for several months I believe, if not years. From memory, he managed to become alpha male in a pack, but lost his status when he left them, and then went back again. Did you know BTW that he adopted Ollie, a northern inuit, who is apparently doing absolutely brilliantly ?
I've got the Coppinger book, but haven't started to read it yet. Someone recommended it on this site, I can't remember who, so my hubby bought a copy second hand for me off one of the book sites.
I personally believe that dogs, whether they be wild, or domesticated, or feral, are still wolves under the skin, with the same pack instincts, the same body language, behavioural traits etc. etc. The language of the wolf is the language that ALL dogs, whatever their breed or condition, will recognise, even if at first they struggle. Ooo gosh, I've just seen the time /... gotta go, Cesar's on !!
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Location: uk
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19-02-2008, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by colliemad
yes and they used to attack then too. I remember two incidents in my school alone where children ended up with stiches from groups of dogs coming in and attacking them. One of these dogs was seen a few weeks later roaming around same as ever, or at least it looked the same and I know it was picked up but that was the only one that they ever caught. The police came and it was all very shocking for about 5 minutes and then interest went elsewhere, it wasn't even in the local paper as I remember my mother commenting about that. I didn't suggest it was hype, I said it was the way it was reported, newspapers print what people want to read and where dogs are concerned that is aggressive dogs attacking innocent people. I have no doubt that dogs attack people now but they did it then too it just wasn't as well publicised as there were other things that sold papers. I think it was the late 80's when the whole issue of dogs attacking started to rear its head in the media so its not a new thing at all any more than people treating their dogs like babies is new, there were people in my road that did that, completely mad people but they did do it and they still do although their dogs never bit anyone....
Lots of us on here talk about our dogs like they are people but how many do you think actually treat them as such? I know I don't but I have adapted to train each dog as they are all different. I have decided though that I am going to use swear words instead of the usual obedience commands on the next one just to prove to people that the words don't actually matter to the dog one bit..... :smt077 As for your grandparents dogs how do they know that they never bit anyone? If they were roaming loose and nobody knew who they belonged to how can you be certain?:smt102 The owners of the dog that was picked up had no clue what it had (allegedly) done and kept letting it out same as ever:smt102 I thought we were talking about attacks in this country not in others? 30 years ago you wouldn't have heard about such things and nobody in this country would really have cared if a person was killed or injured by a dog in another part of the world. The fact is dawn that ANY dog could attack, yours mine or anyones on this forum no matter how much training has gone into them. They are animals and ultimately their behaviour is based on instinct not training. This is why I am so careful who I allow mine to mix with, it's not because I don't trust them it's because I don't trust people to know how to deal with them, far too many still think that dogs should put up with anything you do to them which is something that I will never understand or agree with
The random breeding problem was solved around by us by people dumping the new born pups in the canal, some were dumped at a few weeks of age, I ended up with 2 pitbulls this way when they were part of a litter of 4 that were chucked in.
I cant find anything that says dog attacks were common years and years ago, Id be interested to hear of anything you may come up with to support your statements.Well, if my grandparents dogs did bite anybody, there certainly wasnt any evidence of it. Everybody knew whos's dog was who's in those days, the Airedale was also a show dog!
Re the canal. Must of been full!:smt001 again, I cant find any info to support this either. I know many people culled puppies they didnt want, they still do, nothing new there.
Im well aware that any dog can attack, Ive been dealing with dogs for many years, and there is a considerable difference in just 15yrs of how dogs are treated within the home in that short time Things move on in many ways, I feel a lot of dog owners ruin dogs with their treatment of them, humanising them and making them unable to deal with day to day situations that a normal well balanced Dog would take with a pinch of salt.
This to me is where CM gains, his attitude towards dogs is one of calm firmness, confident and unphased, if more owners were like that, the dogs of this world would be in a far better position than they are today!