Defensive about my breed & my sport, not my Methods

Please let me know
what do YOU know of competition obedience,
, crediable with proper examples , not just comments pulled out your ass,
So if you use a obedience dog as a example i want to know, who trained it & what level it worked
If you use a handler/ training method as a example i want to know what level they are workng & when it was.

If you cantdo this then i dont really see you can use obedience dogs as a example.

Theres no way you would be successful in comp ob in the uk with a dog trained like you train

Honestly AdamP, I'm just interested to know what/how you train a dog to know what a command means to them?

KW, I think those of us who chose to understand what you were saying in your post grasped the meaning, those who didn't choose to understand didn't

I would make a distinction between the feeling created by 'stress' which for me has negative connotations and 'excited anticipation' which is positive feeling. I also think these two kinds of feelings release different combinations of hormones and chemicals into the brain and have a different overall long term effect on the wellbeing and health of a dog.

I think an e collar causes pain and fear related stress and this has a negative effect on a dog while the prospect of a reward like a treat or toy leads to excited anticipation and this has a positive effect on a dog.

Many 'normal' dog owners would themselves feel a degree of stress at the prospect of administering pain and fear to their dog with an e collar , I know I would. This owner 'stress' would be communicated to the dog causing it additional stress. Administering a reward to a dog gives the owner and the dog a feeling of pleasure. You can't equate the two things.


If someone is unable to understand this very basic concept they have no business training dogs.

Oh Adam, I thought you had more sense that to post one of Carthys videos. It's no coincidence, of course, that Bristol Uni is one of the participating universities in the Defra sponsored studies on e-collars

If you search around hard enough, you'll also find the grief he tried giving to Lincoln Uni (another participant in the studies)

Carthy is "lightenblue" the contributor of those Youtube vids?

I know nothing about the person BUT the title of the vid was enough, and then saw the other 2 contributions, decrying someone as a 'loony' etc..... In my experience, the 'loony' label is a usually used by 'loonies' themselves when they are unable to justify or articulate their own standpoint to the satisfaction of others.

What pleasure does someone get from doing this kind of blackballing and undermining of a person who has done years of genuine research allied with a worldwide respected university? (While quoting studies done by people LESS qualified or as independent...hahaha)

All I can say is Do Better Yourself and then PUBLISH.

I understand this, Kruse

The thing is, I've argued against this with Adam (that dogs experience stress - bad stress - when being trained positively), and although he replies etc he at the end of the day ignores all the evidence and arguments against his, and continues, as can be seen here. He's off again, same old same old.

AP and his like are twisting science to pretend that positive training is "bad" purely to suit their shock collar promotion, and also IMO to wind up people who do care about dogs.

Their arguments don't stand up, because until we can actually measure/ know what goes on inside an animal's mind, we acn only look at their behaviour, and the animals tell us what we need to know.

So NO-ONE can say that dogs experience bad stress during positive training because there is no evidence for that.

It's frankly ridiculous, but what is more ridiculous is that even when presented a sound working knowledge of "training" (OC) they dont' listen and continue to promote their view.

It's as if they are some cult that refuses to see what is the truth, because their own lie suits them so much better.


Wys
x

Yes exactly.

Can we not just stop responding to him? Why keep this thread promoted at the top all the time?

Discussing sensible things with shock collar trolls is futile.
I truly believe they are actually not interested, as they have no interest in dog welfare OR the truth.

Let's just stop? JMO but isn't that best??


Wys
x

We started to ignore Lou on another forum and the threads more or less died so it does work. We did have to form a yahoo group to encourage us to sit on our hands though----bit like AA

'my name is rune and I am addicted to answering e collar posts, I will take it one day at a time and try to ignore them'

LOL

rune

Bet we have a bit more ignoring to do once AP passes this one on.

There are actual physiological tests that can be done to show the difference between positive reinforcement & punishment/negative reinforcement. There are many studies identifying the reward pathways in the brain, to measure serotonin levels, & also tomeasure acute & chronic stress by levels of circulating adrenaline, cortisol levels, ACTH, & other neurotransmitters & hormones.

An animal trained using pain as punishment will, after only a few inflictions of pain, show increased levels of cortisol (a sign of chronic stress). It will live for longer & longer periods with higher cortisol levels, unable to reach homeostasis. This factor alone has huge health impacts on the animal (or human!). It is not at all like the adrenalin released during acute stress which usually occurs in short sharp bursts. Acute stress is very different & can be life-saving (e.g. running from a predator), but the body quickly compensates afterwards & returns itself back to normal. This can sometimes be quite an addiction in humans (hence the adrenalin junkies with extreme sports), so obviously a pleasurable & sought after feeling for some.

But this is very different from living in conditions of chronic stress, which is what happens to dogs trained using pain. The first time causes the arenalin rush but because of the surprise & sseverity, dogs quickly make the associations between the pain & whatever else was happening at the time. The next time any of these (possibly spurious) events/factors/associations are made, the anticipation causes anxiety, leads to increase stress levels & over time, the reuslt is chronic stress, when even the sight of the trainer causes the stress reaction. It takes a long time to go away & the poor animal ends up living in an almost constant state of chronic stress. It's not nice & is severely detrimental to emotional & physical health ~ as any us that live with constant stress know.

Sorry ~ a bit off topic.

As for KW's post, I did understand what was meant, but I think there's a huge difference between a trainer trying to use positive reinforcement & failing because of timing issues, withholding treats inappropriately, maybe causing some frustration in the dog ~ and someone who inflicts pain on a dog as a deliberate act in the training process. Adam has said that dogs can be frustrated by the withholding of treats during pos R ~ & I've said that in those circumstances the trainer is not using pos R properly. However a bit of frustration because the dog doesn't understand what it needs to do to get the treat, is world's away from a dog that is too scared to do anything for fear of getting an electric shock!!

Ok - I`m in.
oops