I watched a wife swap programme too, and one of the family's (two adults and two children) in the show were on a completely raw diet including meat, they had a farm and so they new exactly what they were eating.

I thought the farmers on Wife Swap made some good points about bacteria too. I certainly try to keep my house clean...but not sterile! A few germs never hurt anyone as far as I'm concerned...BUT... I thought they took their views to a bit of an extreme (I wanted to visit the look too H!!!!)

I don't think dogs stopped eating raw 50 or 60 years ago, I think they have been eating a cooked diet (with an element of raw, like bones) for as long as they have been domesticated, they would be thrown scraps from the fire and bowls, therefore their digestive system, like ours, has been altering for an incredibly long time, not just since commercial foods were introduced.

We now know a great deal more about nutrition and we also know more about the bacteria which can be in raw food stuffs and the damage it can do to us... if I wouldn't give it to my son, (kibble aside) my dogs don't get it either. Yes, we can eat some raw meat, but it isn't without its dangers....I personally wouldn't risk it, nor would I want to...so why give it to my dogs? No I wouldn't eat thier kibble but I do eat quorn and other such processed foods.... :smt002

Have been trawling again and found this article

http://b-naturals.com/Dec2005.php

A dog's digestive system is much shorter than that of a human and so works in a different manner.

Ailsa I agree - I wouldn't feed my children raw meat either couldn't put up with the mess

Hello!!!!!
No, don't think a dogs digestive system is the same as a humans for a moment!!! I just think it's been evolving away from eating raw for practically as long as ours has...

My honest, hadn on heart opinion on this is that for every pro raw article we find we can find one that is anti. It is up to the individual to find the diet that suits them and their dog.
I mentioned the Wife Swap thing as it seemed relevant to what we had been discussing and made me think a bit more about raw feeding. I can't see me ever feeding raw to my dogs for thw reasons I've already given, but for future dogs, I may attempt a balanced cooked diet, but then if a future dog is happy on Burns, I may not!!!! Each to their own... : )

Excellent points Ailsa. Adaptation started as soon as wolves began to share camps with humans, ~15,000ya and grain would have contributed a significant part of their diet. Any that didn't thrive simply didn't survive to pass on their genes.

Good points about human evolution too One example of how genetic adaptations work and are powered by environmental pressure, is the mutation that causes lactase persistence, so allowing humans to digest milk into adulthood. Cattle were domesticated only 9,000ya by the early Europeans and this mutation occurs only in the population of European descent. Significantly not in Asian and African races which are mostly lactose intolerant.

The point about DNA differences. The 0.2% difference between dog and wolf is that of the mtDNA, which doesn't actually contribute anything to the animal's anatomy or physiology. It's just used in research as a tool to estimate DNA change because it is passed along the maternal line of descent unchanged except for mutations at a predicable rate.

The nuclear DNA is the significant (to this discussion) part of the genome and the actual difference between dog/wolf is not yet known. So yes, agree with duboing, 0.2% could indicate some significant changes.

Agree Ailsa's made some good points there. Understand your point Pod about matriarchal DNA but the point is that Wolves do share the same physiology and internal organs/digestive system as modern dogs quote "“The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mtDNA sequence....
In comparison, the gray wolf differs from its closest wild relative, the coyote, by about 4% of mitochondrial DNA sequence.”

Robert K. Wayne, Ph.D.“Molecular evolution of the dog family”
Theoretical and Applied Genetics. "Dogs are so much like wolves physiologically that they are frequently used in wolf studies as a physiological model for wolf body processes" (Mech, L.D. 2003. Wolves: Behaviour, Ecology, and Conservation).
Also, Dogs saliva lacks amylase, the enzyme responsible for beginning carbohydrate breakdown; so not too good for digesting carbohydrates. Instead, they have lysozyme in their saliva, an enzyme that destroys pathogenic bacteria. They have highly elastic stomachs designed to stretch to capacity with ingested meat and bone, complete with incredibly powerful and acidic stomach acid (pH of 1). Their intestines are short and smooth, designed to push meat through quickly so that it does not sit and putrefy in the gut.

Some good stuff coming through, but, I just feel personally that however, much we'd perhaps like it not to be true dogs are carnivores and do meat meat, it's just a case of whether we are prepared to feed it raw. I feel that the proof is there to confirm this if we want to see it. At the end of the day however, we must just make our hopefully informed choice as with anything in life and try and minimise any risks.

Keep the facts coming folks, it's really interesting

Darn it missed that bit Pod, quote "Adaptation started as soon as wolves began to share camps with humans, ~15,000ya and grain would have contributed a significant part of their diet. Any that didn't thrive simply didn't survive to pass on their genes. bit Pod quote "
Agree there Pod but, the point is they would still up until very recently been fed a significant amount of meat and whole carcass also. They were never fed a purely grain or processed diet until very recently.

The main component of the diet of the Masai tribe of East Africa is milk

http://www.masaikenya.org/

In fairness..Pod did say MOSTLY!!!!! :smt002
There is some cracking stuff on this thread,really interesting, including that link Lizzie!

Kath...not suggesting that dogs aren't carnivores, I do think they are omnivores (unlike me!!!!) I have no problem with my dogs eating meat, infact there is meat in their kibble...I don't think there are many dogs out there that don't eat meat in some shape or another...but those that do (there are eggie and vegan dogs out there) do well as well...dogs adapt, thats why they were domesticated! :smt002

[QUOTE=Ramble;963733]In fairness..Pod did say MOSTLY!!!!! :smt002 !

QUOTE]

I know - but thought I would just sneak it in

I agree Ailsa - really interesting to read the opinions and links people have put in. It is one of those subjects people just have to agree to disagree on but, nevertheless, it does neither camp any harm to look at the other side of the fence from time to time