Look at my dog and then tell me not to take it personally.

I am only trying to study, I am sorry that my timing was bad to raise the topics that I have today. They were not meant to imply anything or be hurtful . Just a topic I have to explore for an essay. Please stop hitting out at me telling me I know ****** all, I was looking for some help with my question that is all and feel very upset now. I thought I could get some help from people who knew more then me.

She is a BEAUTIFUL dog by the way x

Malka

I am so very sorry to hear Pereg has had another fit so soon. It is too soon and you must be feeling dreadful - I know how hard this is on you. I do know, as Loki has clusters of fits (he had 13 in one hour and we thought we would lose him to status epilepticus and we had to administer so much rectal diazepam to stop it) and has spent time in intensive care, where we were told he could die because they couldn't bring him around without him fitting again. I have had to administer rectal diazepam to my 35 kg dog during fit after fit while my new born baby was in her cot. I do understand how hard it is. Hugs xxx

However, this post is not aimed at you or Pereg or Loki but is a general, hypothetical question and isn't intended to offend any of us. I am not offended because I look around me and realise not everyone is like you and me. x

Hey Labradored. So glad to have you studying this. It is an important topic.

I had an epileptic dog. Cancer ate him a few years ago at the young age of 7, but he had to live with epilepsy for the last 2 years of his life. His wasn't so severe that he had to have phenobarbitol, but, requesting it from my vet, I did have diazepam suppositories on hand just in case. My boy was very large, a GSD/Malamute cross, and could not be moved in a cluster seizure condition.

Could I have sold them? Yep-- injecting Diazepam is a thing. An incredibly stupid and dangerous thing, but it's a thing. I personally don't have the connections, but I bet I know someone who knows someone who does.

Could I have claimed that my dog had a seizure and I used them? Yep-- easily. As above noted, vets don't often witness their clients' seizures. But I did pay for the Diazepam. Doubt I'd make much of a profit selling it on.

Also: if I was calling on my vet for more and more Diazepam, they'd probably want to know why my dog was having cluster seizures and I wasn't taking him in? I can speak only for myself here, but my vets know my dogs pretty well, and heavy Diazepam use would send up a red flag to them.

That said, some people will do anything to lay their hands on medications. Sure, a person could claim their dog was epileptic to try to get the drugs, but the consultation fees and the cost of the drugs themselves might be prohibitive. I cannot imagine any vet would react favourably to someone showing up at their clinic saying 'Hey, my dog has fits, can I have some downers?' without a thorough checkup, blood tests, and possibly further investigations. My boy had MRIs-- not cheap.

So yeah-- people can use dogs to get drugs. They can also use horses, or children. We trust our healthcare professionals for a reason.

Just over two and a half hours ago Pereg crashed off the bed in the middle of another full-blown Grand Mal epileptic seizure. It took 100mg Phenobarbitone and 30mg Valium to get her to come down from the seizure and its after effects.

During that time I have read through this thread again, and again the same things keep jumping out.

Unless you are training to be a vet, you would not have to write an essay on canine epilepsy. Certainly not just for a dog behavior course.

For a course in dog behavior? Basically, all you are asking is whether a person can go to a vet and ask for strong barbiturates. And these strong barbiturates can be sold for a lot of money to drug addicts for recreational use.

When Pereg was first prescribed Phenobarbitone, which is a strong barbiturate and could easily be sold for £10 for ONE 100mg pill "for recreational use" by a drug addict - and the majority of taxi drivers will know exactly where to sell them - she was on 25mg BID. That is 50mg a day. She is now taking 230mg a day.

She has had no tests apart from 6 monthly full blood tests and nobody but I have ever witnessed her seizures. She has had no MRI or lumbar puncture because my Vet did not consider it would be worth it - she has Idiopathic Epilepsy and an MRI or LP would not show up anything treatable. The blood tests are just to make sure that her Pb levels are within therapeutic range, and that it has not caused any liver damage. She is not insured so I have to pay for everything myself.

So how does my Vet know that my dog has epilepsy? Because he has known me for long enough to accept my descriptions of her seizures. And he trusts me enough to order 10 or more packets of 30 x 100mg Phenobarbitone at a time.

So you see that all I am reading is that someone has joined a dog forum wanting to know if it is possible to obtain strong barbiturates just by telling a vet that you have a dog who is having seizures.

And saying that they want the information for coursework in dog behavior.

Labradored I hope some of what has been discussed has been of help. Linda is a good source of information for this topic.
Malka is usually but as you can see she is struggling at the moment due to Pereg taking seizures again and due to a lot of other stress in her life.

Malka I know you are not going to thank me for what I have just said but you are frightening a newcomer off who is trying to do some research for an essay. It is nothing personal against you or Pereg. We understand you when you get stressed by the road fiasco and Pereg being taken ill. Newcomers cannot be expected to know what has happened to you last year last month or today or all that you have have had to contend with recently.

So please please stop taking it so personally it isn't about you or Pereg.

Ahh I know the course you are studying, I am half way through it myself and I did struggle a wee bit at that question .....finding it hard to believe that people would pretend their dogs were having seizures just to get their hands on overpriced veterinary medicine!
If you need any further help with your course work please ask, I'm on module six. It is a lot of work but I'm enjoying it too.

Just to add, the info requested is for a course on dog behaviour as there is a module on pharmacology and the effects medication can have on behaviour.

Ahh you are a star, I tell you what it was that threw me, its the fact that it talks about responsible breeders at the beginning of the paragraph and then goes on to ask what unscrupulous owners might do. if it had said unscrupulous breeders the conning the vet for drugs thought may have never crossed my mind! Unless I am missing something or I am probably reading into it too much (I do that sometimes!) I do think the question is worded strangely. Gotta say this module is pretty tough going! Please tell me the next two are not as intense!! xx

I am not training to be a vet. Yes I do have to write about canine epilepsy for "just a dog behaviour course". The module is pharmacology, and as it says in my course notes the module is there in order that the student understands a) the terminology so that you can discuss issues meaningfully with vets and b) how these drugs work once prescribed as it will often provide clues to a dogs change in behaviour.

You have jumped to some very strange and very negative conclusions about my character and intentions in which I take great offence.

I apologise most sincerely for what I said. Had you said at the beginning that the module is pharmacology it would have made perfect sense. Unfortunately by saying that most seizures do not last long enough for a vet to actually witness they have to rely on the owners account in order to diagnose and subsequently prescribe anti-convulsant drugs, followed immediately by saying that such a situation could be exploited by an unscrupulous owner, gave me the wrong impression.

Please accept my apology for this.