Labman, do you practise what you preach, if not that makes you a hypocrite and you have no right to tell others how to treat puppies.
Look at the quotes from your previous posts...

''With many of our puppies, my wife and I were working the same hours our children were in school. The puppies were left much of the day by themselves.''

''we never had problems housebreaking the puppies we have left alone most of the day from 7 weeks.''

''Enough already. Leaving a young puppy all day is a common, proven, highly workable thing as long as it gets a mid day break. It is time for people to quit guessing that it is a bad idea''

You have also said in numerous posts that you crated your puppies in plastic crates measuring 11x15 inches on mesh and with no bedding in case they soiled and without water in the mistaken belief it would help to stop them urinating when crated for so long.


The other members and myself would like to know ....
...how many hours out of 24 were the puppies crated, (considering they were crated all night/when you were at work/when they couldn't be watched /I make that at least 16 hours a day),
...when were your 19 puppies walked and socialised, it must have been dark when you returned home from work for at least some of the year. Did you try to cram all the walking and socialising in to a few hours a week when the puppies finally got out of their crates .

Any good behaviourist and trainer will tell you that walking and socialising of puppies should be little and often, a few minutes socialising at lunch times and weekends is no compensation for crating a tiny puppy for most of its life.
What is even more worrying is that you were supposedly training guide dog puppies, treating guide dog puppies this way would not be allowed by most reputable organisations.

I would also be interested to know how your puppies coped in the hot weather in a tiny crate without access to water for such long periods.

I think Ian Dunbar would be sickened to have his name used by someone like yourself, an arrogant person who advocates using bizarre methods to force puppies to submit/choke chain/mouse traps/'tie down' with chain and all the other cruel methods you suggest which are the exact opposite of Ian Dunbar's methods.

Labman when will you finally realise people here on this site like the other sites from which you have been banned will not allow you to post your cruel outdated methods without being challenged.

I don't know of any reports specifically looking at this - but sure they are out there. What I do know is that joint problems can be caused by a multitude of things and one of them is over exercise when very young.

You might be interested in a quote from David Smith, Director of Veterinary Services for Leader Dogs for the Blind (presumably a similar organisation to the one you deal with). He said (when answering a question on exercise) "We worry that soft developing bones and joints may be traumatized or chronically injured with excessive exercise."

I think most people (vets, behaviourists, trainers, owners)would agree that while it is essential for puppies to get out and about - for socialising and habituation - it has to be balanced against their long term physical well-being.

By the time most people notice that a dog is lagging behind, or laying down to rest during a walk I would suggest that the damage has already been done. Far better, surely, to err on the side of caution and go easy on the exercise for the first several months. As long as the socialising/habituation is covered (and you are right, that is essential) then building up muscles etc can come later.

Ian Dunbar does indeed say that puppies should meet 100 people - but his suggestion is that it is done in the home, not on long walks on hard surfaces.

Val

Val

What you need to understand is the abuse is all in your fertile imagination and distorted view.

Your usual response Labman and avoidance of answering questions which won't go unnoticed by the other members here who are disgusted by your methods !

Yes I do, a young couple came to our training club with an American Bulldog, aged 5 months, they regularly walked this puppy anywhere between 1 to 3 hours a day as well as the puppy being played with by their children & their other dog.

Aged 11 months he was PTS due to the inoperable damage done to his growth plates(& subsequently all his long bone joints)-despite being repeated told by their vet & members of our training club to not give him so much "forced"(ie lead walking)exercise.

This same couple now have a 5 month old Great Dane that they are also walking excessively, he has already had treatment from the vet for limps he has developed !

One large point that has been completely overlooked is the puppy's body condition. Many of you fight my keep the puppy lean advice tooth and nail. Of course, your common roly, poly puppy won't be able to walk as far as a properly lean one. That is why I am given such advice as

''Obesity is the number one nutritional disease affecting dogs. It's estimated that 25-45% of dogs in the US are obese. Studies have shown that joint and locomotive problems increase by 57%, circulatory problems by 74%, respiratory problems by 52%, skin problems by 40% and cancer by 50% in animals that are overweight.

Large breed dogs that are overweight also are more prone to developing hip dysplasia. Obesity is especially dangerous for young puppies, as their underdeveloped frame cannot support the extra poundage that it must carry.''

I have never said excessive exercise is OK, nor have I over worked my puppies. I know many other people doing the same. Some of it occurs at our monthly training sessions lead by highly trained people. They often include young puppies and long walks or extended play sessions.

The X-Rays the dogs get at a year old might not show soft tissue damage, but the dogs go on to long, strenuous careers as dog guides. You need to open your minds and accept the facts.

The real abusers are those over feeding their puppies and promoting rapid growth with rich diets.

Why does this always happen on my threads

Only because a complete pillock decides to post ridiculous and inflammatory answers. It is not your fault!!!

Labman should be totally ignored in my view, but even if nobody answered him I get the feeling that he would still post his rotten and dangerous advice.

sorry, but in my opinion you have.... you say you walk pups until they lag behind or sit and don't want to walk any further... you've also said it's fine for pups to play until they, and once again I quote "drop".... those are both examples of excessive exercise!

I do however agree with you that over-feeding a pup can also lead to severe strain on ligaments and growth... but.... it's not a case of get "pups need to be lean", and ignore any other mistakes you can make.... it's a case of making sure your puppy is of a healthy weight, and making sure your pup doesn't get over tired, and making sure your pup gets enough socialization... and and and.... the list goes on.... if you want a pup to grow into a healthy, happy and stable dog it's everything put together!

I think that a major problem between you and many other posters on this forum is very simply a culture clash.... if all you say is true and backed up by your guide dog institution....and if all guide dog organizations in the US are the same as the one you work for (you refused to answer one of my threads asking for exact information about this subject)... then I'm guessing that the standards set in the US and in Europe are very different.... I have been reading your posts and comparing your advice (other then the weight advice) with our guide-dog organizations, and I'm afraid your methods do not in any way agree with the methods used here... and from the information I received from both the UK and australia, your methods are also not upheld there....

However, there is one extra factor in my opinion which plays a role in most disagreements with you: many posters here on Dogsey get a pup for life. That means that if we get a pup, any and all mistakes we make with said pup will be our responsibility until the dog eventually passes, hopefully from very old age. If we make mistakes, or go by misinformation or ignorance, we ourselves will pay the price when our mistakes become obvious when the pups are older.... and by price I don't just mean financially.... what I mean is in heartache, dealing with dogs in pain, dealing with dogs with behavioral problems etc etc....

you however get in young pups, help them through the first year (which I think is commendable if done in a loving and responsible way), but basically... anything that happens after that first year is not your problem....that is a big difference... and therefore we are all trying to get every and all aspect right as We will pay the price if we get it wrong.... you won't!!! the difference is that simple....

I agree....

He'd be funny if it wasn't so serious......I feel sorry for any pups that've passed his path........