It's good to do this, I do it. However, I don't do it because I want to be pack leader (I stopped that 23 years ago) but because I like manners

Re the Alpha, etc - now we know, via studies on wild wolves that the breeding pair will very often let their pups eat first. This is because they want their genes to live on in their pups, (genetic fitness) so they ensure the pups eat well.

Wys
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Hi there, I think many dog owners tend to state they use pack leader techniques when in fact they aren't anything like the actual pack leader techniques, as was once believed. I think we've had a few discussions about this on Dogsey, haven't we

This has happened a lot on Dogsey when people have been asked about how they view pack leadership, and it transpired that many were simply teaching good manners. This is what those of us do, who do NOT follow pack leadership!!!

They tend to think that teaching good manners is being alpha, and it's not.

It can get very confusing, but I think if anyone says they use pack leader ideas, they should either be using the old way (ie alpha domination ) or else the way John Fisher and others suggested, (ie eating before the dog, not allowing dog on furniture, etc).

Those 2 are the "pack leader" ways, nothing else is
In fact the second way is pushing it a bit! even.

In my view, I think people should use correct terminology as otherwise things can get very distorted and confusing and misleading. Also from a biological viewpoint, it is doing down both dog and wolf to not use correct terminology.

Somewhere along the line, humans love to think they can be part wolf and be a alpha or pack leader; the thought of it is very seductive.

And, it continues a "meme" which became popular, but which isn't correct and in fact, never was.

Wys
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Perhaps most trainers are jumping from one bandwagon to another?

Dominance theory, much misused but still practiced by some of the biggest $$$$$$ and most popular 'personalities', is based on a poor understanding of wolves; but Schenkel (1947) did much good observation of wolf behaviour.

It seems that people are either black or white on this issue. No one is denying that there is a strong social structure amongst wolves (are they?) but there does seem to be denial that dogs also have any form of social structure...

As one the original studies was carried out on wolves, here is a fact regarding the differences between wolf and dog:

The dog and the wolf are further apart genetically than the leopard and jaguar, which are considered two distinct species.


Also a Dog is genetically similar to a wolf but we, as humans are genetically close to a rabbit (we only differ by 15%!).

So not only behaviour-wise but also genetically dogs are not similar.
Time to look at the dog in order to study the dog!

15% - that is large!!! hardly a relevant analogy!

Ok, facts again...
"If domestic dogs are wolves, you would expect the two to be very close genetically, certainly closer than universally recognised non-domesticated carnivoran taxa. Surprisingly for the dogs-are-wolves model, this is not true. In fact domestic dogs and wolves are (based on allozyme electrophoresis) further apart genetically than are leopards and jaguars, and (based on DNA hybridization) further apart than some bear species" (Wayne et al. 1991).

Regarding the rabbit, 15% is a lot to some people and maybe not a lot to others. Considering the huge differences between humans and a rabbit I would say 15% is not a huge amount!

I think this statement is incorrect but am willing to see the evidence. Jaguar and Leopards are two distinct species. Jaguars are believed to have diverged (mt dna test) 280-510 million years ago (older by fossil records).

Dogs are beleived to have appeared 10 or 15 thousand years ago and have recently been re-classified as a subspecies of wolf due to the fact they share 99.8% dna - that is closer than the wolfs nearest WILD relative: the coyote at around 2%.

The percentage difference is reported to be less than that of some ethnic humans. Hence why many now believe that wolves and dogs are much the same.

Sure, study dogs to see their behaviour (which ones by the way as human intervention seems to have altered some 'breeds' considerably) but don't deny them their ancestry.

“The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mtDNA sequence.... In comparison, the gray wolf differs from its closest wild relative, the coyote, by about 4% of mitochondrial DNA sequence.” By 1993 Wayne had changed his mind. It seems he has pretty much stuck to his later theory.

Which brings me back to the question of which dogs are you going to study? Feral dogs? Domestic dogs? As dogs have been selectively bred for many generations how do you know which breeds will provide reliable data? The yorkie or the Dogo Argentino?

Belayev's fox farm experiments that intense selection for one single trait can bring about big changes in physical appearance, so with selective breeding it seems obvious that mental characteristics will be altered as well.

I think it will depend on your definition of hierarchy...

You will see two types of structure in the playground and prison, the structured ranking system that society and laws set down... the teacher /pupil, the headmaster /teacher.

The prison warden /inmate, the head warden /warden!!

These structures (hierarchies) are in all walks of life, its how civilized communities work...

Then there is the hierarchy of the bully and fear based structure.. in both school play ground and prisons, setting the biggest bully at the top of the tree, instilling fear and obedience in all who dare step out of line.

So basically, you wil see both in the playground and prisons, the structure and ethos of the state systems, and the school bullies, who get their by using force and fear to gain their pack leadership!!


I also make my dogs wait before they are fed, they wait at doors/ wait to be released from the car..

I dont see it as me having power over them, nor do they see me as having power over them.

They are taught manners, just like my children were.

I dont want bolshy dogs, that push you out of the way, nor do I want dogs running out of doorways..but it is done for one reason only, theirs and mine safety.

Not because I need to make myself pack leader .

So in a way , we have a hierarchy system going on here..but one that is based on love/leadership and understanding...

i dont look to the wild wolf pack for guidance to understand how my dogs think, they are not wolves, they are domesticated dogs,.. and as such they are treated like dogs.. they live , fit into my home, they also need to fit into society , just like we do, we need rules, structure, and manners...

Simple basic discipline , without having to buy into the belief that if a dog challenges you you need to assert pack leader and think like a wolf!!!!!!!

Just saw this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJAFeUPxyOA
Lovely happy dog preforming a trick his owner has taught him. Owner is happy because he thinks it makes him the boss of his dog, dog is happy because it is doing what dogs want to do best - work with their human
Has the look on its face you see with the HWTM dogs when they are doing their tricks
Waiting to eat is great - if that what you want to teach your dogs, as is waiting to go through a door, waiting at a kirb, getting off the sofa, not jumping on people, walking nice on a lead
all nice 'tricks' or 'jobs' for the dog to do, and working with its human makes a dog happy



Yes totaly agree, we often tend to think when someone says they use Alpha/dom training that they mean the actual methods you stated above. Mainly what they mean is they are in a mindset where they are the boss but in reality mainly use positive training methods without realising it

I think dogs social structure is badly studied - and one of the big problems is that to study dogs in their natural environment you have to study them with man - and the nature of the mans interactions with the dog, the training methods used then changes how the dogs behaive.

Dogs and wolves can still breed and produce fertile offspring
However the domestication process (and whether they came from a totaly different but related animal or they came directly from our wolf) means there are some big differences in things like brain size. Dogs behaive a bit like wolves in the same way we have some behaviours from our ape ancestors
But studying wolves willd or captive gives us no better insight into dogs behaviour than would studying a remote tribe who had never had contact with the outside world and then translating that to someone in New York