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pod
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10-05-2007, 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
I think you'll find that I believe that any breeding animal should be assessed by a breed expert first and foremost, they don't have to prove themselves in the ring or indeed working as many dogs jobs are no longer legal.
Well you don't need to be a show breeder to have your dog assessed by a breed expert. This is open to pet breeders too. And a breed expert could be someone who has no allegiance to the showring at all. A dog that conforms to the standard is not necessarily show 'quality.'
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surannon
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10-05-2007, 07:27 PM
A dog that conforms to the standard is not necessarily show 'quality.'
If it fitted the breed standard what would make it unshowable?

Debs
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lovezois
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10-05-2007, 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by Ripsnorterthe2nd View Post
Hi!!!

What's an "et" breeder when it's at home then?

If a pet breeder wants to produce something different from me, then they're producing an inferior dog IMO (nothing quite like blowing your own trumpet! ). First and foremost I'd breed for health and temperament, like I said earlier a dog that can be taken anywhere and done anything with etc. An easy going dog that can be part of the family, the working/showing part is just my personal interests.

Personally I see the breed standard AS the breed, it should be everything not just conformation, working ability etc. I think that's why so many breeds are in the state they're in, so many people breed for one purpose (be it money, working, showing), instead of breeding for the whole, if you get my meaning?

First of all sorry I really only wanted to quote your last paragraph but don't know how to do this.

Like Surannon I think this is a brilliant post you have hit the nail on the head in that last paragraph.
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pod
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10-05-2007, 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by surannon View Post
They never used to be but they are now yes. I don't see why that matters though? It's no easier to win with an inferior dog in a numerically small breed than it is in a larger one. And homes for puppies are generally harder to find because they're not popular.

Debs

Blimey no, can't agree with that! I've been involved in both numerically small and large breeds... and in Bernese right from the start, to when they became very popular as showdogs.

As the numbers of the breed increases, so does the 'quality' of the judging as well as the dogs. I've seen many poor quality dogs winning in numerically small breeds but few in large.
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surannon
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10-05-2007, 07:41 PM
Just in case it makes a difference, by 'winning' I'm talking about CCs, not just class wins.

In my breed at present I can honestly say that'd be happy to give a CC to about half of the dogs being shown at present (and I'm known for witholding if the quality isn't there ). 20 years ago, when there were far more being shown than now, it would have been far fewer.

Debs

Debs
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Borderdawn
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10-05-2007, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by surannon View Post
Just in case it makes a difference, by 'winning' I'm talking about CCs, not just class wins.

In my breed at present I can honestly say that'd be happy to give a CC to about half of the dogs being shown at present (and I'm known for witholding if the quality isn't there ). 20 years ago, when there were far more being shown than now, it would have been far fewer.

Debs

Debs
So you are saying all cc winners are "worthy" in your opinion? Come on Debs, you know showing better than that, you scratch my back...................... EVERY breed!

Its well known that a HUGE proportion of numerically small breeds do well. Look at Wire Fox terriers, Welsh etc... practically ANY dog that is shown will win. I can absolutely guarantee you can win a class, or at least Crufts qualification at any given show holding classes for them, the same with many of the numerically small breeds, a 3rd place will NOT be witheld, nor a second for the most part, however a stud book number will be won by many dogs just for turning up!
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pod
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10-05-2007, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by surannon View Post
Just in case it makes a difference, by 'winning' I'm talking about CCs, not just class wins.

In my breed at present I can honestly say that'd be happy to give a CC to about half of the dogs being shown at present (and I'm known for witholding if the quality isn't there ). 20 years ago, when there were far more being shown than now, it would have been far fewer.

Debs

Debs
Ah I concede. If you're talking about a breed that was once strong in this country, it's more likely to have better quality and better judging standards than a new breed.
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surannon
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10-05-2007, 07:49 PM
If you're talking about a breed that was once strong in this country, it's more likely to have better quality and better judging standards than a new breed.
Oh absolutely

Debs
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Tee
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10-05-2007, 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by surannon View Post
Quality is that indefinable 'something' that well bred animals (and people! :d ) of any species have. It's not just how they're made or what coats they have, it's a number of things put together that include, among others things, type, temperament, base health, coat, conformation, movement - all these things (not just one or two of them) make up a quality animal IMO. Doesn't everyone deserve those things in their puppy?

Debs
I don't think the majority of pet owners are bothered about all of those things which is why I believe there's nothing wrong with breeding for a pet market. It'd be interesting to do a survey to find out how much dog owners actually know about this. I think there are certain things that MUST be there before an animal is bred from but I also think that what is required of a show dog isn't always what most pet owners actually want. The things that I want in a pet are not the same things I want in a show dog so why is it not ok for people to cater to both markets?
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surannon
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10-05-2007, 08:04 PM
I don't think the majority of pet owners are bothered about all of those things
So you'd be happy with a dog who looked nothing like their breed (type), had a poor temperament, poor health, was deformed (bad conformation) and had bad movement which puts extra strain on joints and soft tissue?

The breed standard is there as a guide to try and prevent all that.

Debs
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