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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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Originally Posted by
Tassle
Treat training is the same as any other reward based training system. You have to use an appropriate reward to the situation and in 90% of dogs I work with Praise is not enough. When there are other dogs around or birds/cats etc to chase you need to up the ante. Food is a good way of doing this.
My dogs will pester me for food sometimes (but that is my fault for sometimes feeding them scrapes.) But there is NO way they would go to someone else. My dogs like to stay with me as I offer them better stuff than other people. Food/games etc.
I find you last statment interesting.....Do you work for your boss because he is your boss or becasue you get paid?
Why should a dog be different. All dogs need to work for something. Whether it is chasing a ball, tugging a rope, getting the sheep to run, or eating some food.
My dogs love fuss - they come on the bed, on my lap and I will sometimes sit with them and just fuss them. Consequently I devalue praise as a reward becasue they get it when they want. My dogs need to work for 'something' of value to them.
Have you ever looked up schedules of reinfocement? This is where people tend to fall down...they use a continous reward, which over time will loose value (think about the difference between a slot machine and a vending machine - one is addictive and one is not.).
Hope you feel better soon
I must be very lucky with my dogs then ! Actually, something I forgot to say about Hal is that treat training would have been an absolutely NO NO with him ! He wasn't in the least bit interested in food, or praise for that matter ! It was sex that tripped his trigger, but I don't think we should go down that route !!
It may be that my particular type of dog is particularly well suited for praise reward, rather than treat reward. I don't think so though - Tai is very food orientated, as already demonstrated, but he is more than happy with his praise as a reward. And if you are a true Pack leader, then this WILL be sufficient. Even Hal would not have been distracted by chasing rabbits once he had been called to heel (admittedly, only after his new training regieme aka CM - before, anything went with him, it was pot luck as to whether he would recall or not !)
I work for my boss for both reasons ! I couldn't work for anyone, however much I was paid, if I 1) didin't like the boss and 2) didn't like the work. Obviously, I couldn't work for no salary at all, but I am prepared to take a much lower salary for a nice boss and interesting work - the two are not mutually exclusive, I must have both. Third, comes working location and fourth money. I believe it to be so with our dogs - they primarily "work" for us because of their undying loyalty, not because we feed them. We all know of the hearbreaking stories of dogs being tortured both physically and mentally, and yet they will still lick the hand that beats them and with their dying breath defend the home of that hand. This is a direct inheritance from their wild wolf ancestors, the undying loyalty to Pack alpha male and female. Unless you happen to be a young male beta upstart from outside the pack, or rarely within ! Which is why we used to have young Hal staging his regular failed attempts !!
I'm not criticising your obvious great and devoted love you have for dogs, as I do too. I just think I see things with less rose tinted spectacles. I am not at all convinced by your argument that your dogs NEED these titbits. I think you would find they will be just as loyal, as devoted, and desirous to please with or without them ... they for sure would say "With With !!
I'm not entirely happy when Tai asks people in the pub for titbits. This has only happened very recently, and it is something I could stop immediately if I wished. Provided there are no other dogs in the pub, he is allowed to go round and say hello to everyone if he wants to, and I see no harm if the odd person slips him a sly crisp, even though I don't approve of such treats, one or two won't hurt him. What I won't have him doing is sitting there drooling at them, that is showing a distinct lack of manners as he would not dream of doing this to us, so thinks he can get away with this behaviour with some more gullible humans ! In future, when I am better and can go out once again, I will have to stop his ramblings I think until he has learned not to beg once more.
I'm not convinced about your analogy of slot machine/vending machine. I personally have always found that with whatever dog I have had, reinforcement works, and when something works, I continue to use it, and it continues to work. Maybe I have just been lucky?
Thanks for your kind wishes Wys. I have had a migraine since Sunday night, and have taken virtually every painkiller, including really strong prescription painkillers, that I could find in my cupboard, to very little avail. However, I woke up this morning just with a mild headache, so that was a great relief. I have taken a couple of Neurofen only, and although very weak and shaky through lack of food, am well on the way to recovery and hope to take Tai out for a walk tonight !!
And I've LOST A KILO AND A HALF IN WEIGHT !! Yipee !! Only 10 kilos to go