Ditto what I said to Kylry

He's a GSD, so not a dainty dog. He's perfectly fine with confidence, and although slightly overwhelmed, happy with bold dogs too - but Ben leaping to pin a dog down is not "bold" or "confident", it is at best poor manners, at worst aggressive, and I would question how confident he really is if he feels the need to attack a dog for a mere warning growl.

I agree with you regarding the pinning - his father Hal NEVER behaved in such a way. He was a natural alpha male, and had no need to display such yobbish behaviour. You are right, it is bad manners - not sure whether it is aggressive, but it is very assertive and is not acceptable behaviour amongst dogs - or at least well-balanced ones. Tai never behaves in such a way, although I do wonder how much responsibility he bears for Ben's behaviour.

When I talk about our dogs being bold and confident, I mean the way they play-fight, greet other dogs in terms of body language and never show fear, never do that supplicating wiggle that a lot of dogs do.

Your last remark is very interesting - he is not a fearful dog, but maybe he is not as confident as I like to think. He has had such a dreadful life for the first 3 or 4 years, it might be this is how he feels he should behave - bite before I get bitten, metaphorically speaking.

Personally I think all the pack stuff and comparing the dogs to one another needs to stop. Just look at him as an individual and take it from there...

That's your opinion Dobes, but I like to look to nature.

You would say Mia is dainty at 10Kg, but let me tell you - even tho it IS fear and something like that will set her back quite a while dont be thinking your dog is safe being a bruiser
Mia wont start a fight but if she feels threatened she will give as good as she gets - a collie and a GSD - many times bigger than her have gone for her in the past and she wasnt the only one who walked away with injuries

I know the majority of fights you have seen have been handbags - but if Ben goes for another unconfident dog it could well not be handbags - it takes confidence to back away and let a fight stop when another dog is up in your face
- dont assume because he is a bruiser that he wont get hurt (imo its horrible to be that complacent anyways when he is injuring other dogs)

I am glad you can see how Ben going for other dogs is very likely a sign of his lack of confidence - and trust me - I know - other dogs 'telling him off' and 'putting him in his place' is more likely to make him way worse


I really do wish you would forget all the pack things too - again and again you are shown that they do not work
The dogs have not taken over the world being on the bed sometimes
You being a good pack leader does not help Ben being more confident around other dogs - or recal nicely
All these things need training, addressing the actual problem - even if the pack things were true they are just not relivent to the situation dogs are in having to deal with many different people and dogs and situations that a wolf would never have to deal with

My dogs ARE allowed on the bed - under my rules, PACK rules!!

You will never convince me that our dogs are not pack animals, so don't even try!! I know what I see with my own eyes every day, not only with my own dogs, but my daughter's. There is a clear hierarchical system, and it works.

Basic training that we are talking about here is nothing to do with pack hierarchy per se, it is all about the lower levels - ie Ben and Tai - doing what their alpha male and female want them to do at any one time. To sit, to lie down, to come, to stay, to get off the sofa, whatever it may be. I do not subscribe to the theory that you should always walk through the door first, or never allow your dogs on the furniture.

Yes but look where that got you, ben, the lab and the neighbours. Nature doesnt provide boundary fencing, etc. but id rather have it.A dog being a pack animal, ie lives in a group etc hadnt anything to do with someone interpretting what they have seen under "unfair" circumstances and deciding on their own training theory... Nature likes compassion for companions and positive reinforcement and respecting an individual provides it imo

What are you talking about!! Me believing that dogs are pack animals has absolutely NOTHING to what happenened with our neighbours!! What happened was due to our carelessness ... by allowing Ben loose on the drive whilst we unloaded our shopping. It is OUR fault that the fence of our back garden clearly was not high enough to contain him, nothing to do with nature!! Of course nature does not provide boundary fencing ... even I'm not that dim!!

There is nothing compassionate about nature, nature is red in tooth and claw. Kill or be killed ... what I mean when I say look at nature, is look at wolves. The ancestors of dogs. I don't want to spark off yet another row about whether wolves are pack animals or not, but I believe they are because that is what I see with my own domesticated wolves, ie dogs. I see it with my daughter's chihuahuas, and I see it with my northern boys. I really did not want to use the w word, because it always kicks off a row.

The question really isnt what you believe - but how is it relivent to the situation?
and as you just said there - it isnt at all - packs and things have nothing to do with the training and behavioural issue you currently have