A very good point about the money in dog training ... I had always thought about the jealousy factor being the big issue, completely overlooking the money word! You may well have a very good point there.

oh no gnasher. i was referring to the owners misunderstanding, nothing to do with cm! apologies for not making it clearer.

i do watch dw frequently because i don't think you can have much of an opinion without a decent amount of knowledge. i did say a while back that i don't disagree with everything the man says, i just don't like some of his methods. when he brings daddy in to 'read' a situation i find that fascinating and also a show where he turned a terrified little dog (sorry, can't remember her breed. she belonged to a guy who taught music i think) into a confident, happy dog mainly by her interaction with his pack, showed a softer side to him. plus i agree with him about dogs getting walked every day. it amazes me how many owners on that show don't walk their dogs and think that is acceptable.

Totally agree with the above, it beggars belief the amount (almost all) of his clients who have no idea exersice is fundamental to a dogs well being.

And 90% of his red zone cases will be fixed with nothing more than a good old fashioned walk..

Makes you wonder , if they went to a less celeb trainer, they might get the same results!!

Experienced long term since when does that make one knowledgeable in canine dog language

Because you have own dogs, for 30/40 yrs does not entitle you an understanding on behaviour, you can tootle along for many a year owning dogs and have not the first clue as to how and what they think.

Being the owner of a dog aggressive dog, believe me I see it on a daily basis....."he wont hurt you, "he only wants to play" no recall, cant control on a lead... yet they have owned dogs for more yrs than most of us have been alive.

Knowledge comes with education, and that does not come simply because you own a dog... or a horse for that matter, the amount of horse owners, that have not got the basic understanding in equines is to many even comment on.

In my daily walks and meeting a wide variety of dog owners, CM often comes up, (as it does) and Ghasher, you must be unique in only meeting pro CMers from my prospective, going to dog shows, Wales every wk end/ park walking, anywhere you get onto the subject of dogs.... it will raise all different opinions, from those who dislike him to those who have not heard of him (yes, unbelievable isn`t it) to those who avidly support him, and believe him to be their saviour...

For instance, the lady with the two labs, (litter brothers) they have no recall, pull like trains, and pull her over, on many occasion... she watched an episode, and promptly bought two slip leads.... stung the leads up under the dogs necks right behind the ears.... and you could see her walking these dogs down the road, with her arms held high choking the life out of the dogs, but the where NOT pulling.........FIXED!!!!!!!!!! she was delighted... they still has no recall, and one eventually got run over on the road.

Another...........Someone with a young boisterous GSD (12MTHS OLD) again no recall, to strong for the owner.. she watched the episode with daddy and the e.collar.... guess what the dog now has an e,collar on , and he is zapped every time he goes further than a foot away from her....but no matters, CM did it, so it must be ok, and after all the dog is FIXED!!!

These two are examples of the average "experienced" (both had dogs all their lives) pet owners, that seem to think CM is gods gift.


Not sure how Krusewalker statement could be arrogant, more the experience of a "professional" who deals with strange dogs and their owners on a daily basis...I cant see you couldn't`t get a more independent opinion than that!!!

Gnasher, you constantly accuse others of tunnel vision, you get frustrated, because they dont see it your way.... maybe if you chilled out a little, and JOINED IN on other threads, there is more to this forum than just CM /NI threads you know.... if you took the time to navigate this forum, you might like it here, and NOT always be so frustrated and defensive towards others views

Yes I agree, a lot of the dogs are just bored, probably a trainer wouldn't be needed if the dogs had a good walk and some stimulation everyday.

What I dislike is the mess I have to clean up from people who have tried and failed with these methods.

I will not complain about the money side of things - he boosts my profits .

How could trainers in the UK possible be worried about loss of earnings resulting from CM

[QUOTE=scarter;1743410]Actually she's got plenty of years of practical experience. I don't know what led you to assume otherwise.

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You could see it that way - maybe with some its true?

Funny enough ecollar trainers say the same thing when their are campaigns to make them illegal.

But then i could put that one back onto you two ways:

1) You could apply your point both ways - you are defending CM's business model?
2)'**Maybe**' it make you feel more secure in your own discomfort/disbelief/surprise/whatever in knowing good/experienced/knowledgeable/whatever dog trainers/professionals/and, yes, behaviorists, oppose CM and his training on grounds, not just of welfare beliefs, but canine behaviour and training beliefs?
That way you could tell yourself that they dont really believe what they believe, it really is just a hidden business agenda?

Not saying that IS how you feel, but its an answer to your argument. As i think you will find that reward based trainers/behaviourists oppose CM only on welfare and training grounds

But the point is that this "business rivalry argument", just like the "general public"argument, arent valid anyway - at best side issues.

Because they dont address the issues of the topic itself.

Again, I would this for any topic, be it for OR against.

Anyway, CM doesnt necessarily have an adverse particular affect on the business of reward based training classes.
The reward class I train at has gained customers because of CM, simply because the show has inspired them to take their dogs to training.
Plus, the point also assumes that the majority of dog owners watch CM, or any dog training TV (of any theory), which i doubt they do.

This may be of interest to people. This is from someone who wrote an essay concerning the Dog Whisperer series as a TV show rather than a method of dig training.

All the material gathered in production is used across various media, including books. Convergence culture has made Cesar a profit, and if we take time to look at his corporation’s use of this material, it is fascinating to see individual Dog Whisperer episodes used in so many ways. However, it is Cesar’s effective televisual presence that establishes the credibility of his methods. We don’t really know if the dogs continue to act well after he’s been gone for a few weeks. But viewers of his show can all remember how many of those dogs settled down just a few minutes after he came into a home. Each episode with a problem dog skillfully weaves together Cesar’s presence and the fascinatingly bad dogs and owners in need of training. Each case is developed according to little narrative arcs, so that the episodes are then ready to be re-edited into compilation episodes (Cesar’s Worst Cases, The Power of the Pack, etc.) and Internet video clips, prominent on National Geographic’s web site, YouTube and Cesar’s own training videos. The show’s success has led to expanding business opportunities for Cesar Millan Inc. here and abroad, such as dog training books, DVDs, seminars and also an 100-product line with Petco. The lesson here is that by virtue of effective marketing and multimedia outreach, The Dog Whisperer has become worth its weight in gold, but all that may depend upon an irreplaceable element, that is, the unique onscreen televisual presence of Cesar Millan.

I've highlighted some revealing statements in this paragraph.
Becky